Fwd 3rd gen 3sgte swaps, 0-100km/h, 400m, 1600m time ? Options

[quick_5hifter]

This year I'm doing the 3sgte swap for sure, I'm already saving money for it. The problem is:
-as far as I've read on 6gc forums, nobody has done the st205 tranny swap (for AWD/4wd); weight would be about the same as a gt4, so why bother swap instead of buying the gt4?
-242 hp on the front wheels seem like too much power for FWD; nobody here has ever shown results of a fwd 3rd gen 3sgte swapped Celica, so I think that, despite the ~200 kg "earned" by eliminating AWD, performances are not better than the original ST205.

So, is there any way of using the 3sgte gearbox on rear wheels transmission and cancel the front wheels transmission?
(this probably is a stupid noob question, maybe someone else already asked that question before, but I just couldn't find any answers about it).

This post has been edited by quick_5hifter: Jan 17, 2011 - 1:24 PM

[NOVAKx17]

This year I'm doing the 3sgte swap for sure, I'm already saving money for it. The problem is:
-as far as I've read on 6gc forums, nobody has done the st205 tranny swap (for AWD/4wd); weight would be about the same as a gt4, so why bother swap instead of buying the gt4?
-242 hp on the front wheels seem like too much power for FWD; nobody here has ever shown results of a fwd 3rd gen 3sgte swapped Celica, so I think that, despite the ~200 kg "earned" by eliminating AWD, performances are not better than the original ST205.

So, is there any way of using the 3sgte gearbox on rear wheels transmission and cancel the front wheels transmission?
(this probably is a stupid noob question, maybe someone else already asked that question before, but I just couldn't find any answers about it).

if i remember correctly, there are a couple members that have converted to the awd trans when they did they're swap.
and i guess the 242 hp to the Front wheels is a matter of your personal opinion. because there are quite a few members that have over
300 hp to the front wheels and have no problems. with the exception of a broken axle here or there (:

but if i can find the links to the people who have done the swap i will post them here for you
----

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showto...8701&hl=awd

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showto...2604&hl=awd

there are two and thats just from searching awd in the search bar, there were 19 pages of info.

hope that helps a little (:



This post has been edited by NOVAKx17: Jan 14, 2011 - 5:07 PM

[presure2]

seriously, just look in the forced induction forum for multiple posts about FWD 3rd gen swapped celicas, (i have one)
no, you cant "cancel" the front wheels on an awd gt-4 tranny.
there are a few guys have done the AWD conversion, pipes, and jmyers threads are both in the general disscussion forum.

[quick_5hifter]

and i guess the 242 hp to the Front wheels is a matter of your personal opinion. because there are quite a few members that have over
300 hp to the front wheels and have no problems.

Unfortunately, this is not just my opinion, this is not even just an opinion about fwd 3sgte celicas... it's a general opinion about more than ~200 hp on fwd cars. I've read some guys' opinions and they said that no aftermarket differential could solve the "launch" problem. So far, not even a "gear selective" boost controller is available, in order to perform perfect launches. It's not a Celica or 3sgte problem, it's a general fwd problem and I'm just looking for a way to avoid it. Besides that, Celicas have another problem when launching: wheel "hop".

Well, in the worst case, I'll be one of the fwd 3sgte Celica owners that can say: "I have a turbo Celica!"

seriously, just look in the forced induction forum for multiple posts about FWD 3rd gen swapped celicas, (i have one)
no, you cant "cancel" the front wheels on an awd gt-4 tranny.
there are a few guys have done the AWD conversion, pipes, and jmyers threads are both in the general disscussion forum.

I'll spend my night reading about it.
I know about your swap, I'm pretty new on 6gc forums but that doesn't mean I'm not reading and doing research. But, as I said before, I haven't seen some 0-60 mph results of the fwd 3sgte's so far.

I have done this new topic for a reason: if rwd is out of discussion I want to know which way is better for a swap: awd or fwd. Also, the expenses are very different: a 3sgte clip is about 3000 usd, while a simple 3sgte engine is about 1200-1500 usd. Shipping to Europe is also more expensive for an engine clip, not to mention the customs...

My guess is, if a fwd 3sgte celica isn't faster than a gt-four, it's way better for me to buy a Beams engine and do a simple swap (I have the 3sge engine).

Thanks a lot for your answers!

[block]

Fwd 3sgte is lighter and quicker. Some guys are running high 12s to mid 13s.

[lagos]

quick_5hifter,
A lot of us on this site have had fwd 3sgte swapped celicas with well over 200hp for a long time now. I've been daily driving mine for about 6 years now!
There are no major issues with this setup. Sure you can say that an awd or a rwd is better than this or that, but thats with any car.

I have also been in a real st205. Its a very heavy car. While it might launch well because of awd, the fwd swap is much faster of a street car.

[Tom_SS2]

buy a supra for RWD

[whatthe]

Yeh its called a mr2.

[DEATH]

Dude I've beaten BPU Evo's and STI's - the FWD swapped Celica is very fun car and it's quick too.
But if you are in an area where you can buy a GT4 why not just sell yours and get one? I personally wouldn't cause my car and I are joined at the hip and I wouldn't give her up for a heavier car even for the AWD [I'd probably just have two ]. Furthermore, there is reason why the 1st and 2nd gen Eclipses [a similar platform in most respects] as well as the Caldina GT4 and GT-T came in both FWD Turbo and AWD Turbo - cause both are fun and good for different motor sports.
But an AWD swap can and has been done as was shown to you before.

[quick_5hifter]

Fwd 3sgte is lighter and quicker. Some guys are running high 12s to mid 13s.

Now that's a good thing to know. I've read about many swaps, seen many pictures, even a few "first run" videos, but nothing about performances before.

quick_5hifter,
A lot of us on this site have had fwd 3sgte swapped celicas with well over 200hp for a long time now. I've been daily driving mine for about 6 years now!
There are no major issues with this setup. Sure you can say that an awd or a rwd is better than this or that, but thats with any car.
I have also been in a real st205. Its a very heavy car. While it might launch well because of awd, the fwd swap is much faster of a street car.

If it's two of you, guys, satisfied by the swap you've done, than most likely it can't be as bad as I thought
I'm not saying awd is better, there is a pretty big weight difference between fwd 3sgte and awd 3sgte (I guess about ~200 kg), and that extra weight can't be good for the awd at higher speeds.
Also, I'm not saying rwd is better than fwd, since I drive my Celica in winter too (and my wife drives it too).
Someone was talking about using the gt-four tranny case with fwd internals and, if that was really possible, I've been thinking that a gt-four rwd tranny would also be possible, with some other internals... my bad, transmissions are definately not on my knowledge list

buy a supra for RWD

Yeh its called a mr2.

...or a Soarer. Or a Ferrari 360 Modena. Yeah, why didn't I think of those?
Seriously, guys, I don't want to change my car, not even to buy a gt-four.
Also, I'm doing a swap this year, as I said earlier, but I don't want to spend about ~5000 usd if it's not worth it... I mean, my car can do 0-100 in ~7.9 seconds right now, it would be a waste of money to do the fwd 3sgte swap for, let's say, 0-100 in 7 seconds. For the same amount or less, I could do some other things to my car to do 0-100 in 7 seconds, like lowering weight and many others, WHILE KEEPING IT LEGAL with the original engine.
On the other hand, it's my only car, it's an every-day car and, if I'll buy a second car, it won't be another Celica, not even another coupe, since my familly is getting bigger.

Dude I've beaten BPU Evo's and STI's - the FWD swapped Celica is very fun car and it's quick too.
But if you are in an area where you can buy a GT4 why not just sell yours and get one? I personally wouldn't cause my car and I are joined at the hip and I wouldn't give her up for a heavier car even for the AWD [I'd probably just have two ]. Furthermore, there is reason why the 1st and 2nd gen Eclipses [a similar platform in most respects] as well as the Caldina GT4 and GT-T came in both FWD Turbo and AWD Turbo - cause both are fun and good for different motor sports.
But an AWD swap can and has been done as was shown to you before.

I've taken a look at those swaps, the first one just wouldn't float my boat ever (I would never feel safe in a car made out of two half-cuts, no matter how good the welding is).
About the awd transmission, I already said that I don't want so much extra weight.
I don't want the 3sgte swap for drift, top speed or the BOV sound, I want to do it for 0-100 and quarter mile. That's why I would like to read about some 0-100 km/h of fwd 3rd gen 3sgte swapped Celicas.

I must say I've given this topic a wrong title, wish I could change it to "fwd 3rd gen 3sgte 0 to 100 acceleration time".

Thanks for all the replies, even the "evil" ones!

[Johnnyny]

u could use the tranny from an altezza black top

[3WayStunna]

Altezza tranny wouldnt fit first and foremost...secondly the only trannsmission that might work in a celica is a haichi, but even then, doubt it will work...and yes you could use the 205 tranny in a RWD setup...BUT you would be welding the diff up inside the transfer case, and you would have to find some way to "plug" up the holes from the two front axles....even then, you would probably have to swap over the 205 chassis to some degree, and also most definatly the rear setup so you could run the 205 diff, or maybe a supra/soarer diff...nonetheless.........

I belive its very possible to do it, i mean if the evo and subaru guys can do it in that manner so can you....but you would be converting a FWD car to carry a modified AWD tranny, and rear diff...all that work just to be different (i assume different because if you want to drift then WTF yo buy a 240/200sx) when you could just buy a 205 and call it a day, or make a bad ass FWD celica with an lsd to boot as well!!

I mean, it seems obvious that you might not have the funds to do somthing like this, and if you didnt even realize that there were members on this site who run badass FWD 3sgte powered celicas, then i doubt you would have the time and patience to really make a RWD celica.

Hope i didnt come off as an @ss, but really man, these conversations have been done over and over, and over....But if you did pull it off, show it off, lol....

EDIT: you wouldnt have to remove the front axles, but somehow weld up the center or front diff to only send power to the rear...

This post has been edited by 3WayStunna: Jan 17, 2011 - 12:48 AM

[Culpable04]

RWD celica is as possible as the one I saw on pass time this weekend ( on demand ) some guy here in NJ owns a 1995 celica with a small block V8 on it.

as far as keeping it more " stockish " goes, you would need all the rear stuff from a ST205 with a stronger rear diff, and the front will need some custom work, but is perfectly possible, just takes time and money like anything else. the whole AWD converted to RWD transmission idea is dumb, if the point of RWD instead of AWD, then why use the heady transversad mounted trans ? what weight savigns would be achived ? yes, is the easiest of the way of doing it, but not even close to the best efficient.

3sgte + IS200 trans and rear diff, with ST205 rear subframe, now that would be something to stare at.

[quick_5hifter]

Like I said in my previous reply, I would like to change the title to "fwd 4rd gen 3sgte 0-100km/h acceleration". Perhaps someone can help me with that.

RWD 3sgte really was a dumb idea, starting with the fact that it would have the weight of an ST 205, while performance would probably be worse.
If a rwd 6gc could be done, than my mechanic could do it too, with no further detalis required. The problem is that I don't have an ST205 tranny to show him, that's why I asked the dumb question in the first place. I don't have the required knowledge to figure it out myself and I didn't make plans to learn everything about transmissions, just to figure out by myself that a rwd st205 tranny isn't possible or, if it is possible, it's not worth the efforts and expenses. Plus, as I've used the search function before creating this thread, there was no other discussion regarding this subject (making a rwd st205 tranny), only discussions about replacing the st20* gearbox to a rwd tranny, swapping the t20 engine to a 1jz/2jz from Supras, with the rwd 5/6 speed tranny and others... nothing about rwd 3sgte with st205 tranny.

It's like some of you guys, owners of CF hoods & stuff, would have to learn everything about CF, including history, chemistry, types of resins etc., just to buy a CF hood... NO, that's not the way to do it, you just ask about weight, durability etc., then buy and install your god damn hood. Or it's like someone looking to buy a decent car stereo would have to learn everything about transistors, resistors, soldering etc. Again, you don't have to do this, you just check out the factory provided specs, see if they fit your taste, than buy the stereo or not. Same goes here: before going further with the rwd dumb idea, I thought it would be better to ask here first, then do research if required. Actually, that was my first dumb idea, to ask this question here.

Forget about the rwd idea, let's move on to the other question: does anyone have info about fwd 3rd gen 3sgte Celicas, like 0-100 km/h time, 400m time, 1600m time, top speed etc.?

This post has been edited by quick_5hifter: Jan 17, 2011 - 12:28 PM

[Culpable04]

you are taking this wrong.

it wasn't a dumb idea to ask, and honestly a RWD 6th gen is not a dumb idea either, is out of my price range, but certainly not dumb, it's been done, more than once.

your example of CF and stereo, dont apply as these items fit with no modification, 3sgte engine in your car will require modification, so so would RWD or AWD conversions.

as for accurate 0-100 km acceleration times on a swapped car, I don't think I've seen consistent numbers yet, it varies from setup to setup and depending on how good the driver is. but with the average power and weight of these cars

( 3rd gen 3sgte weighting around 2700 lbs ) 0 - 100 km should be around 4.3 seconds

[DEATH]

Like I said in my previous reply, I would like to change the title to "fwd 4rd gen 3sgte 0-100km/h acceleration". Perhaps someone can help me with that.

You can do that yourself. Go to the first post and click the edit tab

[richee3]

I don't think the idea of a RWD Celica is dumb at all. The ST205 transmission is heavy compared to the much lighter S54 FWD transmission that came with the USDM GT and the SS-III model Celicas. So a FWD Celica is already quite a bit lighter right there. However, if you were to take the Altezza transmission and make a RWD Celica as some members here suggested, you could have better traction for launches than a FWD Celica, as you mentioned earlier. No, it would not be cheap and yes, it would take some custom fabrication. But it would be cool as hell to have.

Let's take another look at some numbers: Toyota Supra twin turbo, 320 hp. It's a heavy car compared to our Celicas. Much faster, but also heavier. Swap a 3S-GTE into your Celica and do some basic bolt-ons and you can have 330 hp to the wheels, easy. So you have a lighter car with more power to the wheels than a stock Supra has to the flywheel. That should give you an idea of your 0-60 mph time. The Supra did it in 4.5-4.9 seconds, depending on who you ask. So you're looking at a sub-5 second 0-60 time assuming you can get your launches down. Keep in mind that I have absolutely no proof of this, and I'm just hypothesizing based on the power to weight ratio of both cars.

You mentioned a critical flaw of FWD cars earlier- wheel hop. There isn't really a good "cure" for wheel hop, but there are ways to combat it. Since you will be doing a motor swap anyway, you can invest in some poly motor mounts. Those won't eliminate wheel hop, but they'll help cut down a little bit.

This post has been edited by richee3: Jan 17, 2011 - 1:32 PM

[quick_5hifter]

@Culpable: 4.3 sounds awesome, but i don't think it's even close to reality... the st205 can do 0-100 km/h in 5.9s and it probably lanches very well, because of 4wd. I'm talking about the standard, not modified 242hp 3sgte. If the fwd 3sgte could reach 100 km/h in 5.9 seconds or less, it's more than enough for what I want (the 400m, 1600m times will definately be better than the st205, since the 4wd is slower at high speeds). I'm not even interested in a rwd 3sgte setup (even if it's cheap and easy to do), if a fwd 3sgte can beat an awd 3sgte from 0-100 km/h.
Too bad I can't see some consistent numbers...

@Death: got it, thanks for the advice! I got used to another kind of forum board and settings, where you can only edit your reply in 5 minutes, after that it can only be done by a moderator...

@richee: it's obvious that a lighter car with the same engine is faster, but it's harder to launch from 0 km/h.
About wheel hop, I don't think it can be solved... my car does that too, and it only has 175 hp... this problem cannot be solved if you change everything: lsd, engine mounts, bushes, springs, shock absorbers and also add sway bars and tower bars... I think the problem is that Celica has too long "lower arms" or whatever they're called.

This post has been edited by quick_5hifter: Jan 17, 2011 - 1:58 PM

[Culpable04]

use this !!


at 242 whp and weight of 2750 for a FWD car the estimated 0 to 60 mph time is 5.599, note this is " ideal " conditions, meaning perfect launch with stocky tires and perfect shifting. that's why this is a very vague number as it'll change from car to car and between different drivers.

[RUNNIN-LOW]

i just wanted to add my two cents about fwd set ups and numbers:)

first of all like culp said its all about the driver and how good he is. secondly you really have to look at what tranmission your using...for time, traction, and weight.

s54 or e153, both can fit the gen3 3s..i for one had both in my car. i can tell u one thing is that.. the s54 you feel everything since it much lighter and has low rpm range and very very torqy. the e153 is heavy and has high rpm range, torqy but its heavy so you dont feel all the power, when you do launch you dont have that much wheel spin compared to the s54.

as for 205 vs swap 204..on track time..thats a hard one to call.
the facts is that once you get to a certain speed, the awd loses power due to the power ratio to all the wheels, and since swap 204 is only fwd the power ratio to the front is all but equal and the power band will be constant.

so in reality and if you really want to be certian do a meet up there with 10 awd and 10 swap gen3 204's and have them run each other to see who beats who.

fwd swap gen3 isnt bad at all.. trust me i alway use to tell people that they shouldnt judge a books by its cover.

ooh if you look hard enough on here..there is a clip where a 5sgte beats a 3sgte..thats when its all about the driver hehe!!!!!

This post has been edited by RUNNIN-LOW: Jan 17, 2011 - 2:10 PM