Why can't we turbocharge a 3s-ge?, Compression ratio related Options

[delusionz]

the bottom line is, if you started with a 3sge, a small turbo is a good way to add a little kick to it, and anyways at this point you have traction and brakes to worry about. if youre after more than just a little kick, instead of pulling the 3sge engine to build it up you may aswell buy a 3sgte motor to either build up or drop in and call it a day.

if you didnt start with a 3sge at all, you would be almost retarded to start with one if a 3sgte was accessible to you.

only reason for doing so is maybe if you had spare parts laying around you could combine a gen 3 3sge head with a gen 2 3sgte block, or you simply just couldnt get a 3sgte..

[Neon90424]

Would the VVTi be controled by the aftermarker computer if you put in some 9.0:1 compression pistons in it...I mean...you gotta forge it anyways right?

[BonzaiCelica]

Would the VVTi be controled by the aftermarker computer if you put in some 9.0:1 compression pistons in it...I mean...you gotta forge it anyways right?

edit: I'll just shut my mouth and let the guys who know about turbo's doing the talking.

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Jul 1, 2011 - 12:55 AM

[Rusty]

uhh no way man vvti with boost is awesome. Just take a look at The Supra which was added with VVT-i on both intake and exhaust in 1998???

nope just on the intake side.


Its actually pretty common to take the NA camshafts and install them in their turbo counterpart, as they are a mild upgrade & usually require less work installing them, than bigger aftermarket camshafts. High compression +T are up to a point, more responsive than the factory GTE.


vvti and ACIS are both beneficial in turbo applications, there should be more noticable low & mid torque.


I sort of agree with you reasons delusionz.
If you have own a 3rd or 4th gen 3S-GE from factory (as in not swapped), you can turbo a 3S-GE (there are a few on here that have) or you could swap a 3S-GTE over. But since the 3S-GTE/ST205 is also accessible to you. its just easier buy a ST205. But as for swapping to a 3S-GE and then to turbo it, it would definitely be easier, safer & cheaper/cost effective to sawp to a 3sgte in the first place.


Bonzai, I dont understand your last comment, but you edited it anway. My understanding why people disable their vvti when they start chasing bigger power with turbo, for a few reasons: lack of aftermarket camshafts (there maybe more options nowadays, but maybe not in the same price range as nonvvti camshafts) and secondly the cost of dyno tuning time to tune in the vvti.




Slightly offtopic, but Tom's Racing did a "280T" Altezza, it was turbo and limited to just 100. Also the altezza's blacktop 3S-GE has alot of readily available turbo kits from Trust/Greddy, biltz and I think even HKS do one aswell. Plus all the cheap knock offs.





moved to the FI section

[BonzaiCelica]

Bonzai, I dont understand your last comment, but you edited it anway. My understanding why people disable their vvti when they start chasing bigger power with turbo, for a few reasons: lack of aftermarket camshafts (there maybe more options nowadays, but maybe not in the same price range as nonvvti camshafts) and secondly the cost of dyno tuning time to tune in the vvti.

that's what I was about to say. That they remove vvt-i simply to achieve more horsepower.

Oh so it takes more tuning time with vvt-i huh didn't know that....

[delusionz]

Beams head on my engine would be cool, but very doubtful i would be able to achieve any improvement (probably a loss due to that NA cam spec ****)

lol my turbo is already 0 lag, spoolup starts at 2200 and full boost by 2800.... with ballbearing full boost already happens at the tip of the pedal so cant get much better response than that...

[delusionz]

with a turbo you would lower the vvti solenoid engage point to some point where in the middle of the turbo spoolup range, maybe around 3000

[3WayStunna]

with a turbo you would lower the vvti solenoid engage point to some point where in the middle of the turbo spoolup range, maybe around 3000

Makes sense....probably what alot of the honda guys do...hmmm, anyone with turbo honda experiane could probably explain...lol, i know there are some board members with a VTAK honda lol, jkjk....

But seriously lowering the engagment point would only make sense to best take advantage of the VVTI. Someone made a good point earlier about the 2J/1J and its VVTI. I dont really know when it kicks it or how, i might have to ask my friend as he currently has one in his chaser...

[Edophus]

vvti doesnt kick in, the i on the end means its always moving, it is programmable based on a various other inputs, it adds a lot to a turbo setup as it can affect exhaust flow, and therefore spool up, and thats a cycle that ends up with more boost earlier and more power.

as for the na engine vs turbo engine it depends on the revision of engine your talking about, the rev 2 na vs rev 2 turbo i'd take the na because the acis head is better than the tvis head as the tvis head has massive ports that taper in badly, but ultimatly once worked enough this isnt that much of an issue, but your still better starting with the na head. the rev 3 engines it doesnt matter. if you leaving it stock, a rev 3 na 3s-ge has the same pistons as a rev 2 3s-gte but with a larger crown for more static compression, and bigger cams that mean in reality there probably isnt a lot in terms of dynamic compression and actual engine endurance between them. I'd wager a rev 3 3s-ge will boost everybit aswell as a rev 2 3s-gte.

beams turbo's despite more agressive cams in terms of lift and duration get on boost sooner, and for much longer than non vvti engines, they can also run higher static compression ratios, this down to a mix of the more agressive cam, and the fact that the cam timing can move around. seriously research dynamic compression ratio, and realise that the static ratio is only one peice of that, its a whole world more complex, your cam timing changes it, your boost pressure changes it, its a whole different game.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Jul 2, 2011 - 7:17 PM

[brenton1919]

yes the compression is to high to boost. u can boost a high compression engine but it takes stupid money so lowering the compression would be the way to go. a dish like piston will be the one u are looking for wit a egg shaped skrit

[Neon90424]

I think we all GET that boosting on a high compression engine is infact UNWISE. But the number one thing we all do when boosting an engine to high output is FORGED PISTONS. Now if we stick a pair of 9.0:1 compression CPs or Wiseco's in there would a 3s-ge(T) handle a ct20 if we slap a 3s-gte exhaust manifold and works?

[delusionz]

edofus i bet a 3sge unbuilt would max out somewhere well short of 250hp before major pinging on pump gas would require such retardation of timing that u wouldnt be able to capture any more power or otherwise cause damage to the engine.

on the other hand a 3sgte will handle 300hp+ atw all day long, we know it because we do it. 3sgte is hell detuned from factory, its good for some serious power right out of the box.

the first instance is a waste of a turbo, most turbos are at their best at 14+psi,,, they like to swing up to about 1bar and thats where they are most efficient for mid sized turbos such as the stock one, and even the one i run. 6psi ? maybe 8psi tops is what you could run on a 3sge+t, and then in that case you may as well get something so tiny that it comes on boost at idle and gives u 6psi till redline... and then u really gotta say... i just spent a fortune on a new turbo setup and all i got was a pathetic little peashooter?

all your google theory stuff is best left at that, we dont need your rocket science when we're talking about an engine that can only handle 8psi tops

if you gonna boost your ride, you may aswell use common sense start with a boosted motor and boost it more, have something nice in your engine bay rather than a pathetic tacked on peashooter turbo.

This post has been edited by delusionz: Jul 5, 2011 - 10:56 AM

[delusionz]

All this vvti stuff and high compression stuff and midrange torque talk, I invite you guys to come in a ride in my 1.6 tonne gtfour and tell me i dont have low end torque, I think having owned or driven every variant of a JDM 6th gen celica I'd be in a good position to say Ive got more response, more low end power, more mid range punch, more high end power in my current setup than any other I have ever driven.

So off boost you get NA response right? then on boost your into the power, ... Well if you pick the right turbo like a CT20b or a GT28RS you are never off boost for long and even if you are, boost is only a gear shift away, it's not like NA response is going to make you fast at 1500rpm anyways, so why bother? Why waste 3/4 of the turbo's capability??

Dumb notion imo

[delusionz]

The only real advantage of high compression small turbo would be that if setup right, its very fuel efficient

[Edophus]

all your google theory stuff is best left at that, we dont need your rocket science when we're talking about an engine that can only handle 8psi tops

would be interested to know how you've come to the conclusion it can only handle 8psi tops, and fyi none of my knowledge or theory's come from the internet. Nice argument though, whatever the point is your trying to make .

no one would argue with the two sitting infront of you its more cost effective to start with the 3s-gte, the higher the power you build for though, and the more you spend, the less important it is which one you start with, and in a few cases (such as the gen 2 3s-gte) if your doing a full build then you are better starting with one of the na versions.

also its worth noting that there are people who have done exactly what your saying cant or isnt worth doing, its quite cheap to take an na 3s-ge if thats whats in your car already and using hand-me-down parts from gt-fours such as the manifold/turbo/ecu and some other bits and peices which makes a very cost effective power upgrade if you get the parts cheap enough. It does however require you to know what your talking about.... Ultimately it is not black and white, and the point i was alluding to is that static compression is only one part of a very large puzzle, it is foolish to assume what can and cant be done based solely on that.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Jul 15, 2011 - 10:38 AM

[ST205WRC]

so im possibly about to embark on this journey. i have an AT celica that i got for cheap and im going to use it for part to do a mcpherson swap in the front so i figured instead of buying another engine like i was going to that i could just use this one. are there any other real differences in the 2 that would make me not wana do this? like do the NA engines have oil squirters? i will be do all the work myself, forged internals, head work, the whole shebang. any info would be great.

[3WayStunna]

Nope the NA 3rd gen 3sge doesent have squirters at all.....anywho are you going to swap the beams in, or the 3rd gen 3sge? I thought it was a beams though...anywho to stay on topic Edophus makes a good point. Everyone is assuming that you would keep the stock pistons, therefore limiting yourself to how mush boost you can run in a previously NA engine. Last time checked low-comp 3sgte pistons are easy to come by brand new and actually rather cheap. And if you wanted to, you could use the 3sgte pistons themselves if you had spare ones laying around.

[Edophus]

i'm pretty sure na 3s-ge's do have oil squirters, any that i've seen do, i even thought the rev 2 3s-ge did not have them but having been shown some that do i beleive its only the 1st gen 3s-ge that does not have the squirters. It could differ from market to market though so i guess there is no guarentees.

anyway st205wrc you say you have an AT celica? then that would be the 7a-fe engine no?

[3WayStunna]

Well then, i stand corrected on the oil squirters issue. Even looked them up and found the part number . And i dont want to speak for ST205WRC, but im sure he is referring to a jap-spec model.

[Edophus]

Well then, i stand corrected on the oil squirters issue. Even looked them up and found the part number . And i dont want to speak for ST205WRC, but im sure he is referring to a jap-spec model.

yeah i thought the same before but was happy to find they do have them!.

he is possibly refering to an auto trans model just when i saw AT i wondered was it like at202 rather than st202, its monday morning and i'm a bit slow to get going lol.

I think if your opening up the engine and replacing pistons and doing headwork and generally going to that extent it doesnt matter so much which engine you start with its either down to preference or what you happen to have.