Why can't we turbocharge a 3s-ge?, Compression ratio related Options

[ST205WRC]

yeah my bad its an ST202 A/T with ACIS. its a POS the shift solenoid went out in the trans so im guna junk it after i get what i want. would it be worth while to use the ACIS or just got to a normal side feed intake. from the looks of things i think i found my new forged build wahahaha.

[Edophus]

yeah my bad its an ST202 A/T with ACIS. its a POS the shift solenoid went out in the trans so im guna junk it after i get what i want. would it be worth while to use the ACIS or just got to a normal side feed intake. from the looks of things i think i found my new forged build wahahaha.

not really sure about the acis to be honest, i've seen a 400bhp rev 3 3s-ge and it still had the stock intake manifold but whether acis was still being used i'm not sure

[3WayStunna]

Man i wish EAZY was here. he would be able to answer any question about ACIS. If you checked out the MR2 forums pretty much all his post are about the 3sge in some way or manner. If i were using a 3rd gen engine though, i would scrap the stock mani and run a st215 manifold or some sort of custom manifold.

[Neon90424]

I kept trying to tell everyone about changing the pistons for some reason no one listens to me.


So I think we have established that by change the compression we can run boost on forged pistons and con rods? and that by adding boost we need an aftermarket computer that can handle vvti?

[3WayStunna]

I kept trying to tell everyone about changing the pistons for some reason no one listens to me.


So I think we have established that by change the compression we can run boost on forged pistons and con rods? and that by adding boost we need an aftermarket computer that can handle vvti?

That seems to be the gist....and of course we were listening to you ^_^
And the aftermarket computer deal would apply if dealing with VVTI or not. I mean you would need something to drive the new injectors (amongst other things)
unless you decided to keep with the stock ones (dont know why you would want to do that?)

[delusionz]

would be interested to know how you've come to the conclusion it can only handle 8psi tops, and fyi none of my knowledge or theory's come from the internet. Nice argument though, whatever the point is your trying to make .

cuz that's all you'd need to make big numbers, and with that comes alot more heat and stress to deal with... well it may not be as simple as i put it, but there is a direct relationship between static compression and the amount of boost you can safely run on pump fuel via the amount of power you wish to put out. I think it's safe to say that a factory 3sgte can safely put out an arseload more power than a factory 3sge

dont see where thats an arguement you can pick nits at really..

[delusionz]

The real question isn't Why can't we turbocharge a 3sge, It's Why would we turbocharge a 3sge?

Why wouldn't we just get a GT4 lol

This post has been edited by delusionz: Jul 18, 2011 - 8:55 PM

[3WayStunna]

Think that both questions have been answered more than once already delusionz....

A:) you might have a 3rd gen 3sge and want to turbo charge it....
B:) you might want a turbocharged beams engine
C:) if you have a blown 3sgte engine and have a spare, why not....

Their isnt any real bad reason NOT to turbocharge a 3sge. Its all up to personal choice with how far you want to do it. On a budget, youd be pressed to get any real results from it. Seriously all this talk about compression ratio and static ratio dosent really even matter. If you were to build a badass turbo 3sge/3sgte you would end up spending just about the same amount of money and the blocks are identical ( found this out because of this thread).

Only true downside, if there ever was one, is if you choose to not swap pistons, do something with your fuel setup, and just slapped on a turbo. Now with that being said, the true question should of been....

How can i turbocharge my Na 3sge using the stock components and what can i expect out of it all.

With this kind of question in mind, i think its smart to consider the obvious things necessary. Such as downpipe, exhaust, manifold fabrication, or if possible the use of a 3sgte manifold/dp combo...Do they even have the same bolt pattern?

This post has been edited by 3WayStunna: Jul 18, 2011 - 10:35 PM

[Rusty]

The 2nd Gen 3sgte had TVIS. Also the ACIS manifold doesn't have the restriction in the intake runners like TVIS did even when the butterfly's were fully open.

An example, quite a few people here in NZ who are running a 4e-fte or a 5e-fte in their starlets had improvements with an ACIS manifold from a 5e-fhe

You would need to sort out the oil and water lines aswell, the 3sgte uses 2 extra bolt holes on the top, the 3sge has them but doesn't use them.

[Edophus]

well the original questions was what is it about the 3s-ge that means you cant/wont turbo it, is it the compression? the answer to which is no, there is nothing to stop you turboing one, your just dealing with a different set of parameters so you'll get a different outcome, as for why you wouldnt well in most cases its simpler and cheaper to start with the 3s-gte version, and just a handfull of cases where you are better of starting with the na 3s-ge.

As for the compression ratio issue itself as i've tried to point out it will affect the maximum boost but it isnt strictly true its a direct relationship between psi and compression ratio as its a relationship affected by the cam timing, compressor efficiency, how effective your charge cooling is, what rpm's the boost is being made at, the weight of the car the engines in, even the gearing. So the results would be variable depending on a bunch of stuff. The rev 3 3s-ge may have a higher comp ratio of 10.3:1 but thats not directly comparable to the 8.5:1 of the rev 3 3s-gte because the na engines cam timing means your losing some pressure out of the cylinders due to later closing of the exhaust valves etc, hence when you calculate the dynamic compression ratio the picture starts to change somewhat, the actual amount of charge that ends up in the cylinder between the two engines is not comparable. The 2zz with its aggressive cams and 11.5:1 comp ratio is a good example of this, they boost well despite there high comp ratio, even 260bhp from the factory with no internal modifications. lol all that assumes you dont blow the headgasket first, which is entierly probable if you boost a rev 2 3s-ge, before you run into detonation problems.

none of that matters as soon as you open up the engine for forged pistons, i'd be more concerned at that point that i have block with decent wall thickness than which particular version of the engine it is.

think i'd prefer the st215 manifold over the acis intake given the option, and with the tvis heads preference would be not to use them and go for a small port head, but i think either the acis manifold or a st162 side feed manifold would be better than the stock tvis one.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Jul 20, 2011 - 5:42 AM

[delusionz]

While were at it ditch the rubbish intake/exhaust manifolds for custom items, gen 3 3sgte head + gen 2 3sgte block, get rid of that pathetic excuse for a turbo that toyota labels "ct26", get the forged pistons , arp studs and gen 3 3sgte oil cooler..

The only reason for doing a 3S-GE+T is wanting a little extra kick out of a pathetic piss poor Celica while on a budget... and then you realise the car needs more and more money on overlooked supporting mods, the project ends up costing a fair chunk of cash, and in the end is still a pathetic FWD Plus Tee and you could have had something meaner for cheaper...

Not that I can talk, The money spent on my GT4 could have got a very mint GT-R Skyline

[Neon90424]

just boost an altezza

[malpaso]

just boost an altezza

Just reading through topics this note leads me to only reason Why I could think about turbocharge 3sge (not swap directly 3sgte) is having Altezza black top Beams 3SGE, put inside 2.2 stroker kit and to have unique vvti 2.2 3sgte engine... a lot of money, not sure if worths it but definitely unique enough to have excuse to do it

[ST205WRC]

not to offend any one that has commented on this thread but most of you are all very narrow minded. there are a few reason why you could/would boost a 3SGE. as it has been said multiple times if you are going to build from the ground up it really doesnt matter what you start with, gen3 blocks are all the same. for example i have a ST205 that i want to build an engine for. my plan is fully forged blah blah blah. i have a st202 that i am going to use for a macpherson front end conversion after that its kinds useless. so i am most likely going to pull the engine and use it for my build since i already have it. once you get down to that level of build its not going to matter about stock compression or rod strength its just like taking a gen 3 3sgte and building it.

[3WayStunna]

just boost an altezza

Just reading through topics this note leads me to only reason Why I could think about turbocharge 3sge (not swap directly 3sgte) is having Altezza black top Beams 3SGE, put inside 2.2 stroker kit and to have unique vvti 2.2 3sgte engine... a lot of money, not sure if worths it but definitely unique enough to have excuse to do it

not to offend any one that has commented on this thread but most of you are all very narrow minded. there are a few reason why you could/would boost a 3SGE. as it has been said multiple times if you are going to build from the ground up it really doesnt matter what you start with, gen3 blocks are all the same. for example i have a ST205 that i want to build an engine for. my plan is fully forged blah blah blah. i have a st202 that i am going to use for a macpherson front end conversion after that its kinds useless. so i am most likely going to pull the engine and use it for my build since i already have it. once you get down to that level of build its not going to matter about stock compression or rod strength its just like taking a gen 3 3sgte and building it.

What they said
Anywho can the 205 transmission bolt onto the blacktop? Also do they share the same mounts or mount locations.
Also looking at the benefits of the blacktop or redtop 3sge. Maybe having higher volume oil pumps due to the vvti system? Also could the blocks be just as strong as the 4th and 5th gen 3sgtes? Alot of questions but not too many answers...anyone got any ideas?

This post has been edited by 3WayStunna: Jul 21, 2011 - 10:48 PM

[mkernz22]

Not to try and compare it to Honda's, but isn't vvti just like vtec? I know that people turbo b16's, b20's, h whatevers (you get the point) all the time. Don't you achieve a faster acceleration with the vvti (or vtec) kick? My buddy had a 99 SI, and the vtec kick felt pretty cool. If you had a 3sgte vs a 3sgte with vvti, which would win? I would think that the one with vvti would because it could go higher into the rpm range as well as have a better torque curve. That's just my thought on it though

[delusionz]

except, you'd launch at an rpm higher than the vtec engage and never really fall below those revs when racing, technically vtec would lose cuz it has extra weight

[3WayStunna]

While reading up on both systems, ive read that VTEC is much more aggressive than VVTI. To be honest, after driving an altezza and my prelude, the altezza was fair more aggresive with spirited driving when driven under the same conditions as my prelude, yet much more smoother. With the VTEC it was like a KICk...well we all know what its like, but with the VVTI much more smoother.

I understand it that, VVTI dosent "kick in" but instead is a constant change of cam timing as the car is driven.
VTEC on the other hand, allows for the valves to operate in a differnt manner thus creating the KICK and such...

One thing i am wondering though, considering timing, is whether or not it would be wise to just turbocharge the blacktop. I mean, the biggest obstacle would have to be with ECU timing.

[Rusty]

Variable Length Intake Manifold (with info regarding ACIS and turbo) Actually the ST162 1st Gen 3S-GE had TVIS, did you mean to write ST215 intake manifold by chance? I guess would be up to personal preference which either intake manifold you use... but maybe not one of the TVIS manifolds



Can't swap a blacktop 3SGE into a ST20# engine bay, due to a lot of reasons and costs. You also cant mix BEAMS blocks/heads with a 3SGE or 3SGTE, due to a different cast

Hondas
VTEC - Varies duration, timing and lift by switching between two different sets of cam lobes.
i-VTEC — In high-output DOHC 4 cylinder engines, the i-VTEC system adds continuous intake cam phasing (timing) to traditional VTEC.

Toyota
VVT-i - Continuously varies the timing of the intake camshaft, or both the intake and exhaust camshafts (depending on application).
VVTL-i — Continuously varies the timing of the intake valves. Varies duration, timing and lift of the intake and exhaust valves by switching between two different sets of cam lobes.

Nissan
N-VCT - Continuously varies the timing of the intake camshaft, or both the intake and exhaust camshafts (depending on application).
VVL — Varies timing, duration, and lift of the intake and exhaust valves by using two different sets of cam lobes.

(I'm going to create a NEW sticky which will have this & more info for easier reference)

as I posted before

Slightly offtopic, but Tom's Racing did a "280T" Altezza, it was turbo and limited to just 100. Also the altezza's blacktop 3S-GE has alot of readily available turbo kits from Trust/Greddy, biltz and I think even HKS do one aswell. Plus all the cheap knock offs.

[delusionz]

Greddy do a kit for the altezza, with turbo, manifold, downpipe, intercooler, piping, and comes with an emanage or some sh*t... its a fully bolt on kit, no custom fab work

Does about 250bhp