Why can't we turbocharge a 3s-ge?, Compression ratio related Options

[3WayStunna]

found some info on an altezza forum

Other notes:
Retard Timing about 1 degree per PSI of boost.
2JZGTE Pistons will fit with slight machining to the piston skirt for oil squirters, factory 3SGE rings will fit the 2JZ Pistons. 3SGTE rods fit the 2JZ pistons with machining work.
3SGTE rods will bolt up to 3SGE pistons and 3SGE crank, they are stronger than factory 3SGE rods.
Compression with 2JZGTE pistons and stock headgasket is 9.6:1 which is perfect for good response SAAB boost.
Compression with 3SGTE 3rd Gen pistons is 11.2:1. Not the ideal setup.

Turbo Feeds:
Turbo oil feed can be tapped from one of the 3 bungs near the oil filter. This is direct oil pressure so use a 1mm restrictor if using a ball bearing based turbo. With journal bearing turbo's this is less of a problem.
Turbo oil return should be pressure free and as vertical as possible, the return from the turbo can be tapped into the rubber pipe running from the rear of the head on the passanger side down to the block. It will be hidden by a metal plate which can be removed.
Water feeds can be tapped from almost anywhere, a good choice would be the oil cooler on the side of the block under the manifold. Simply tap the outlet to the turbo and then back into the block.

looking at some dyno figures
275.9kW @ 18psi (though it was dyno in the wrong gear)
270.5KW @ 13.6psi
'could' be the most power you can get out of a blacktop/redtop(maybe?) BEAMS turbo with vvti and lack of aftermarket camshafts to suit situation.

One thing i was curious about, is if all 3rd gens share the same blocks, shouldnt there already be "bungs" of some sort on the block itself that can be used? If not then i can completly see where tapping the new spots would be ncessary...

Amazing thing, i am reading through the same thread. Long as hell, but very imformative. Alot of talk about the use of 3sgte pistons and how (with certain headgasket thickneses) it would affect compression...will also say that this applied to the blacktop beams engine.

Some info about the redtop though, is that supposedly it shares the same rods and the st215 which would mean they are just as weak???

Also was also able to take out the TODA cams selection for the blacktop beams app.
http://www.toda-racing.co.jp/en/product/cam/3sgs-1.html

Also dumping bits of info for someone to possbily use...
general 3s information that applies to all 3sg cylinder heads

Capacity 1,998 cc (121.93 cu in)
Bore x Stroke 86 mm (3.39 in) x 86 mm (3.39 in)
Intake Valve Diameter 33.5 mm (1.32 in)
Exhaust Valve Diameter 29.0 mm (1.14 in)
Included Valve Angle 44.5 °

[Edophus]

next to the oil filter on the blacktop is a series of oil ways that are blocked with little grub screws( actually some may be cast but not tapped i cant remember), that'll be what they are reffering too, the redtop sump has this also, its not actually on the block but rather the aluminium part of the two part sump, and where they talk about feeding in the oil return from the turbo is on both beams they have a large rubber hose that runs from the gearbox end of the head an down into the sump, its there to allow any oil collecting at that side of the head to drain into the sump.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Jul 28, 2011 - 7:18 AM

[3WayStunna]

Ahh thanks for clarifying that edophus...makes more sense right now than what i was reading in that one thread! Working 12 hour shifts 16days in a row makes it hard to make sense of things....Anywho is this the same issue with the water lines as well?

EDIT:
Oh wait, the 3sgte turbo water lines are from the "right" side water elbow, and the other end goes through the stock oil cooler and into the water pump.....okay real question is, could you use the 3sgte oil cooler and right side water elbow to run the water lines?

This post has been edited by 3WayStunna: Jul 28, 2011 - 7:45 AM

[ST205WRC]

@3way the TODA 268 IN cam doesnt say you cant use the VVTi. the really high lift ones you cant use the VVTi because the change in timing at high lift can make the valve contact the piston.

@edophus there are 2 things that i dont like about the TODA pistons. 1 you cant get them in anything other the 86mm and 87mm bore. i dont really wana go to 87mm only really wana go .5mm over. the other thing and really the biggest one for me is that with the current exchange rate after shipping they are over $1300US just for the pistons.

does anyone know if the intake cam from a gen3 3s would work for the exhaust cam in a beams?

[3WayStunna]

Looks like it can. Ive looked into it for a bit on the EPC and they share the same part #'s and design. Then again would be better to get 100% visual verification. Also what i meant in showing the TODA link was that there were VVTI enabled cams(looks like we just ended up saying the same thing). Shame they only have two different profiles, but then again how much aggressive would you want them to be?

[Edophus]

Ahh thanks for clarifying that edophus...makes more sense right now than what i was reading in that one thread! Working 12 hour shifts 16days in a row makes it hard to make sense of things....Anywho is this the same issue with the water lines as well?

EDIT:
Oh wait, the 3sgte turbo water lines are from the "right" side water elbow, and the other end goes through the stock oil cooler and into the water pump.....okay real question is, could you use the 3sgte oil cooler and right side water elbow to run the water lines?

I dont really see why not, although the water elbow might need some modification to fit i'd need to check.

as for rev 3 3s exhaust cam, i've never tried sitting it in the journals on a beams head, i dont have a spare 3s cam at the moment they are all bolted up in engines, i have that spare beams head though i could take measurements from if its helpfull of the cam journals etc.

[3WayStunna]

Its not necessary. Here in a few months ill have he blacktop, redtop, and 3sgte both torn down so i can do a install check myself and post the results.

[3WayStunna]

Alright ealier i posted that the blacktop might be able to fit through some sort of wizardry near the driver side engine mount. Well i think i found out the wizardry involved. Seems that what would most likly be required is a retro-fit of an st20** water pump, idler pulley, tensioner pully, tensioner, timing belt?? and of course the engine mount. Thats what i can gather to the least of things btw...ill put these tow pics here for comparison btwn the two. But it looks like the similarites speak for themselves. Also i hear that the blacktop uses a returnless fuel system AND
fly by wire throttle. The returnless system shouldnt be a problem for those who just continue to retrofit parts, but how would someone overcome the fly by wire throttle?

[Edophus]

3way here is a pic of the blacktop before i dropped it into my gen 5. All i've changed is the tensioner and idler pulley, didnt change the water/oilpumps or anything else as i used a redtop beams sump. You'll only need to swap the oil pump over if you use a different sump to the beams, as the beams oil pump has a recess for the crankshaft angle sensor so wont match up to the non beams sumps. Your still going to have the problem on a gen 6 that the exhaust vvti controller sticks out so far it will try and physically occupy the same space as the engine mount.



the blacktop beams does use a returnless fuel system, the ecu controls the pump, if you want to use the blacktop ecu then you will either need to retrofit the altezza pump in place of your own, or add a small tank with the altezza pump in it and a lift pump from your tank to the smaller tank, or simplest just alter the fuel rail to make it a return system and add an adjustable pressure regulator.

The altezza is drive by wire also. If your putting it in a celica and using a redtop inlet manifold then the throttle body wont match. I'm not going any further with my blacktop/redtop hybrid justnow as when i pick up that project again i will use aftermarket ecu, but if i was to continue where i left off i'd save myself a major headache and just drop the exhaust vvti controller for a fixed cam gear and run the whole thing on a stock redtop beams ecu as they are easy to work with, and its pretty easy to adapt the blacktop loom for it although you need different coilpacks. There really is nothing but pain in starting with a blacktop over a redtop!.

[3WayStunna]

Edophus very helpful picture. Never new you were retro-fitting a blacktop into your 5th gen. Hope to continue to see some more information about your progress....that is if you dont mind

Anywho i can finally visually see what everyone means with the mount...hmm from the way it sounds putting in a redtop would be the obviously easy choice for us 6th gen folks...

Also gotcha on the DRIVE by wire throttle. I just re-read my last post and noticed i typed FLY-BY wire system....guess my job has my head all messed up lol..

[ST205WRC]

so basically stay with the red top for the 6th gen. now how much different are the valves in the black top vs the red top? could we use the 6sp black top valves in the red top as an upgrade? are the other demensions of the valves the same other then the diameter of the valve itself? i think it would be a worthwile upgrade stronger, lighter and bigger.

[Edophus]

the blacktop intake valves are 35mm vs 34.5mm for the redtop (all previous 3s engines are 33.5mm), i'll need to check the exhaust i cant remember off the top of my head. The blacktop valves are titanium and apparently half the weight of redtop valves. The difference between the redtop/blacktop are more a combination of slightly larger valves, and slightly more compression, the difference in power isnt great but the blacktop is setup to make its power slightly higher up the revs, hence more compression and bigger lighter valves, peak power is 600rpm higher, unlikely to gain much in the way of power from using a blacktop but the end product should show better results than the power difference would suggest. In either case both blacktop/redtop respond very well to an aftermarket ecu so its always the best place to put your money first imo.

There is nothing to stop you shoving a blacktop head on a redtop engine, the head casting is the same, except for the water ways, and thats easy to account for with a small blanking plate, and just drop the exhaust vvti controller for a solid cam gear. Although as usual you'd have to weight that up against just having some headwork done to the redtop head.

Ultimatly there is little to gain from starting with a blacktop, or even using the blacktop at any point, it'll be better, but by how much and how much extra pain did you need to go through lol. I'm not going any further at the moment with mine as i'm satisfied its going to work, but really want to build it for boost, so its sitting ready to be torn down again when i can afford some nice forged internals for it. I had it in and running to the point i could drive around, but had issues with the fueling and the throttle body, so no power over 3000rpm, both of which i'm sure some more time/money investment would solve, but as i want to run aftermarket ecu in the long term they wont be a problem at that point.

the setup i used was

blacktop head and block, complete with blacktop water ways and head gasket
redtop oilpickup, windage tray and sump.
redtop inlet manifold and throttle body
redtop tensioner and idler pulley

I was able to retain the blacktop water ways as i had the room for the pipes, if you have to convert to redtop water ways then you also need to change the blacktop head gasket for a redtop, as the gasket alters the water flow through the block. Really you end up using so many redtop parts, it will probably cost you twice as much as just doing a redtop, and thats a lot of extra cash that could have been spent upgrading the redtop, i managed to do mine for about the same cost as a redtop, simply because i was lucky and paid peanuts for the blacktop, but i've never seen another that cheap since, they are all two and half times the price i paid for mine, so it kind of made sense to have a go, but i wouldnt recomend it!. If your going beams with the intent of turbocharging, then its reallly hard to see past a greytop beams, the only difference between it and a redtop is the greytop exhaust manifold has pre cats built in, but your chucking it away anyway, so doesnt matter.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Aug 11, 2011 - 10:09 AM

[lankyalien]

its cheaper just buying a 3sgte.

high compression cars cant boost high i think the max you'd do is what......8lbs????

In addition. to achieve this you need to keep temperatures down, especially of the intake charge. Intercooling needs to be 100% efficient or better, spark plugs have to be colder to disperse heat from the cylinder at the point of ignition. It's a good idea to use a fast road or rally cam, reducing the restriction of airflow past the valve and therefore reducing heat of the intake charge at this point and reducing the chance of creating a hot spot around the valve. Fuel and ignition settings need to be adjusted. Preferably strengthen the internals but if a relatively low boost (ie 8-10psi) is used, and and appropriate ignition and fuel map are used, this should be able to be used on a standard build engine

[delusionz]

woah, supercharger and carbon fibre intake on a 3sge

[fgvillegas]

If you were to turbocharge a 3rd gen 3sge in 2 different ways, that is:

1 - internals are the same and having the right amount of boost and turbo size for street use
2 - internals were changed to increase strength and lower the compression and having the right amount of boost and turbo size for street use

At low to mid rpm range, which of the 2 setups will give more power and torque?

I was thinking that it could be setup 1 because of the compression ration is still maintained. But then again, it's just my understanding and would appreciate if someone could enlighten me on this.

Thanks.

[fgvillegas]

I hope someone can shed a light on this. I'm planning to have a high comp turbo on my 3rd gen 3sge next year.

[Neon90424]

supercharge it with stock internals. bam!

[fgvillegas]

supercharge it with stock internals. bam!

Sounds like a good idea! What kind of supercharger can be used?

Thanks!

[Neon90424]

it might be a good idea but in the end superchargers = expensive, I know that blitz supercharger for the 2zz-ge does a max of 8 psi which is about the most that the 3s-ge can handle which is why I thought of it...plus it sounds damn mean

[3WayStunna]

There is also the rotrex line of superchargers....http://www.rotrex.com/Home.aspx
http://www.mr2.com/forums/beams-owners-gro...percharger.html = supercharged beams by user Mandalay.
Dont forget about the supercharged 3sfe engine out there...dont currently have the link but it was a limited edition "JAPAN ONLY" engine.
Then there is the picture i posted about some random unkn guy who is building a twincharged 3sgte...
And then the Hillcimb celica that IS twincharged, lol....

Then there is also the thread on here about supercharging a 7afe lol...to be honest i would say it would cost the same as a turbo charger setup if not a bit cheaper..Always cool to see more supercharger setups...

woah, supercharger and carbon fibre intake on a 3sge

Yea i stole that pic from MR2OC...that manifold was GOING to be a production type, much like RacerX's , manifolds...but i guess the maker reneged on it all and dropped out of the MR2 scene....Would of been an awesome manifold to have on your car though