4runner brakes on gt celicas, big upgrate and not expensive! Options

[qatar11]

Why do you want to upgrade, just say for the hell of it and because i have the money.

I'm speechless to this comment... a potentially unsafe change to a car that could very much be a determinant and not an upgrade and we should all get in line and scream from the roof tops, "Eff that guy, you got the money, go for it"

[diegohiga]

How do you know that you have exhausted your current brake set up and need to go bigger?

7afe and 5sfe= 1piston brake. 3sgte= 4 piston brake from factory. Im installing a 3s and i dont want a weak 1 piston brake system

This is so full of wrong, I don't know where to start....

lets see...

a GT4 has 4 pot aluminum calipers... a car that weighs 1000 lbs more with drastically different rear brakes, weight balance, vehicle dynamic, et all... 10:1 those calipers are either part of the homogilation rules of rally at the time or a very shiny touch to a very expensive car...

This makes perfect sense to swap into your econo box with extra HP

What happens the first time you you slam on your brakes in a turn in the rain and you go ass first into a guard rail because your rear lifted and you lost traction? Or what happens when you try to stop because some jack ass stopped in front of you, and the nose of your car dives under his bumper? What about that master cylinder? Is it the same? What about your rear discs and calipers? Are they going to corrode and seize because they hardly actuate?

No one on this forum wants to have a serious discussion about brakes, no one talks about upgrading to SS brake lines, bleeding the system correctly, pad and rotor combination, intelligent bias adjustment discussion - et all. Now if you want to have the discussion that the single pot calipers are twisting under load and creating uneven pad wear, something I am starting to deal with, then we can have a caliper upgrade discussion. But I'd be willing to bet that the GT calipers would perform better than you expect with the extra HP after some minor massaging and high quality pads and rotors... after all late model ST165s and ST185s also were sold with single pot calipers.

You want to be a baller and drop 4 pots on the front of your car and stop fast in straight line, be my guest. But don't call it a brake upgrade.

Ok thanks ill keep that in mind. if anyone gets more info about this nice 4 piston BRAKE UPGRATE post it here please.

[diegohiga]

Why do you want to upgrade, just say for the hell of it and because i have the money.

I'm speechless to this comment... a potentially unsafe change to a car that could very much be a determinant and not an upgrade and we should all get in line and scream from the roof tops, "Eff that guy, you got the money, go for it"

If its unsafe we wont use it. Simple as that. Thats why some people here want to get them and test them first. Im and not planning to install them and run at 100mph and hit the brakes and see if they work or not. If im doing this i will Test it, test it and test it over and over again till i am 120% sure they work fine.

[BonzaiCelica]

its about getting the big brake kit set up properly

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Sep 27, 2011 - 2:56 AM

[cjh4l22]

How do you know that you have exhausted your current brake set up and need to go bigger?

7afe and 5sfe= 1piston brake. 3sgte= 4 piston brake from factory. Im installing a 3s and i dont want a weak 1 piston brake system

This is so full of wrong, I don't know where to start....

lets see...

a GT4 has 4 pot aluminum calipers... a car that weighs 1000 lbs more with drastically different rear brakes, weight balance, vehicle dynamic, et all... 10:1 those calipers are either part of the homogilation rules of rally at the time or a very shiny touch to a very expensive car...

This makes perfect sense to swap into your econo box with extra HP

What happens the first time you you slam on your brakes in a turn in the rain and you go ass first into a guard rail because your rear lifted and you lost traction? Or what happens when you try to stop because some jack ass stopped in front of you, and the nose of your car dives under his bumper? What about that master cylinder? Is it the same? What about your rear discs and calipers? Are they going to corrode and seize because they hardly actuate?

No one on this forum wants to have a serious discussion about brakes, no one talks about upgrading to SS brake lines, bleeding the system correctly, pad and rotor combination, intelligent bias adjustment discussion - et all. Now if you want to have the discussion that the single pot calipers are twisting under load and creating uneven pad wear, something I am starting to deal with, then we can have a caliper upgrade discussion. But I'd be willing to bet that the GT calipers would perform better than you expect with the extra HP after some minor massaging and high quality pads and rotors... after all late model ST165s and ST185s also were sold with single pot calipers.

You want to be a baller and drop 4 pots on the front of your car and stop fast in straight line, be my guest. But don't call it a brake upgrade.

Are you serious? why do you think its considered a brake upgrade when cars like STI's, EVO's, Porsche's, Ferrari's, etc... have multi-pot caliper brakes? as far as braking faster, its still to your advantage. its always been considered an advantage to stop sooner, as far as ending up under someones backend... Who cares? better than smashing into it evenly, and if you're in a lowered car its likely you're gonna end up under it anyway! furthermore, front brakes do the majority of your braking anyway, so as far as going ass first into a guard-rail; you've got much bigger problems if the backend of your FWD, Front Engine car, with a ~60/40 front/rear weight ratio... is sliding ass first into a guard rail. your information about seizing brake calipers and master cylinders has no logical reasoning. why wouldn't your current rear brakes have that problem? they don't do the majority of the stopping in a fwd car, or any car, for that matter. most master cylinders have more than enough ability to crush any set of current day rotors and are the same ones used in gt4's and in some (much heavier) toyota camrys, so why wouldn't it work? oh, and late model ST165's and ST185's single pot brakes... did you not notice what they got replaced by? multi-piston brakes. yea, I'd say the manufacturers had a pretty good reason for that IF they've been doing it with everyone of their sports car since 1993. (ie. - supra, gt4, 3000gt, stealth tt, evo, eclipse, corvette, mustang... need i continue?) So yes sir, it IS most definitely a flipping upgrade!!

So, in short... If you prefer taking more time and distance to stop when its necessary... and feel like smashing into someone, then by allllll means sir. enjoy. we will send you a card while you and you're passenger are in the hospital. good day.

[qatar11]

Are you serious?

Yes, I am - the brakes are the most important system on your car - the effects of modify the brakes will greatly alter the characteristics of the car above and beyond any other change.

why do you think its considered a brake upgrade when cars like STI's, EVO's, Porsche's, Ferrari's, etc... have multi-pot caliper brakes?

It's not - It's called stock, i.e. a caliper specifically selected for that car

as far as braking faster, its still to your advantage. its always been considered an advantage to stop sooner, as far as ending up under someones backend... Who cares? better than smashing into it evenly, and if you're in a lowered car its likely you're gonna end up under it anyway!

No one is questioning the straight line stopping advantage of larger brakes (which is the end result of those 4Runner 4 pots, 4 pots in general will not guarantee greater stopping force for the same size caliper) A 1" lower is not a 3" dive under the bumper of a F150 instead of crashing into it... I would care when I have a greater chance of kissing the rear end of that truck with my teeth.

furthermore, front brakes do the majority of your braking anyway, so as far as going ass first into a guard-rail; you've got much bigger problems if the backend of your FWD, Front Engine car, with a ~60/40 front/rear weight ratio... is sliding ass first into a guard rail.

Yes, they do... but the weight shift to the front could be far worse and unpredictable with that caliper change and a poor balance tune.. My comment about be ass forward was a potential result... as opposed to recovering from that situation

your information about seizing brake calipers and master cylinders has no logical reasoning. why wouldn't your current rear brakes have that problem? they don't do the majority of the stopping in a fwd car, or any car, for that matter. most master cylinders have more than enough ability to crush any set of current day rotors and are the same ones used in gt4's and in some (much heavier) toyota camrys, so why wouldn't it work?

I don't know why it would not work. It is simply a concern and cannot be ignored when upgrading the brakes... It's a system, and you must think systematically.

oh, and late model ST165's and ST185's single pot brakes... did you not notice what they got replaced by? multi-piston brakes. yea, I'd say the manufacturers had a pretty good reason for that IF they've been doing it with everyone of their sports car since 1993. (ie. - supra, gt4, 3000gt, stealth tt, evo, eclipse, corvette, mustang... need i continue?) So yes sir, it IS most definitely a flipping upgrade!!

Sure, its an upgrade... it was also a designed change, made in the context of the rest of the vehicle's brake system

You mentioned a host of cars, which are grossly out of context price and performance point wise, but my point can still be proven, I googled with zero follow up or scientific rigor:

Car / Weight / Wheel Size
4Runner ~ 3,700 lbs, ????
Celica ~2,580 lbs, ????
GT4 ~ ~ 3,174 lbs, 16x7"?
STI's ~3,296 lbs, 17x8.5"?
EVO's ~ 3,285 lbs, 17x8?
Supra ~ 3,417 lbs, 16x9
3000GT (We'll assume VR4) ~ 3,800 lbs, 18x?
Corvette ~ 3,180 lbs (17x8.5F, 18x9.5)
Mustang ~ 3,603 lbs (18x8.0) -> 19x9.0

I'll skip the ferrari's and porsche's as they are a bit out of the scope of the discussion.

These cars all demonstrate a convincing need for the brakes selected for the car... to a car, they are all well over 500 lbs heaiver and significantly more powerful, even with the 3SGTE swap. They also have larger and wider tires to give you a larger contact patch to use those brakes....In addition, these cars are all halo cars to their respective brands, many of them the bench mark for stock car 'Ring runs, et all...

You guys are all right... you drop those 4Runner calipers on, and your 100-0 stopping times will be greatly improved, probably markedly... but at what cost? a bias valve is not a Jesus buttom, its not going solve all the system issues. In the end, people talk all the time about upgrading the calipers, and no one here talks about what it means to add 5-10 lbs of unsprung rotor weight out on the corner of the car like that, what will that do for acceleration, are the brakes the limiting factor? or is it the tires? the pads? worn out shocks and struts? what happens to handling, etc?

I want to have a tecnhical discussion about it, and it just turns into a flame war, how dare you question my plans, you hate america, blah blah blah - so whatever. you have the means and the way.

So, in short... If you prefer taking more time and distance to stop when its necessary... and feel like smashing into someone, then by allllll means sir. enjoy. we will send you a card while you and you're passenger are in the hospital. good day.

Any question wrt your class is nicely summed up here... Is this how you end all technical discussion?

[richee3]

My only contribution- and I intend to start no argument with anybody here- is that your braking capabilities are limited only to what your tires can handle. Personally, I've found my GT calipers to be capable of locking up the wheels, no matter which tires I've had, so any caliper upgrade is completely unnecessary.

[azian_advanced]

that's a good point, unless the OP is looking to increase the sensitivity of his car's braking force relative to pedal force because let's be honest, compared to most cars the celica has very low sensitivity.

[Culpable04]

instead of arguing and pulling each other's rope in opposite direction, we should use everything we know as a group to develop the cars capabilities not to stop development.


the advantage of bigger pads / more piston are plenty

more even and consistent brake force with less brake fade with excessive use like on twisted roads or road racing.

the real disadvantage is only cost.

the rest of the disadvantage that can be mention will all be self inflicted due to poor ) or total lack of ) tuning.

qatar will always have a different point of view than most here, because he focus his approach purely on functionality ( which is a great thing ) but I think instead of criticizing and putting down the humble efforts of an upgrade from fellow members who are not as experience as you in proper car modifications, you should instruct and pass on your acknowledge, that how we'll grow and get better as a community.

I agree with everything you have said, and I have been looking for a safe area where I can tune my brake proportioning valve ( not installed yet ) also to help keep brake bias as intended by Toyota I'm installing GT4 brake disc as well, along with stock gt4 brake proportioning valve ( installed already )

as soon as I find a safe environment where I can safely tune my brake proportioning valve I will tune my brake system to maximize braking force while staying on the safe side of things.

engine power is not really a reason to upgrade brakes ,I decided to upgrade my brake while I still had my 7a, why ? brake fade.

I play softball on the company's team, to get to some of the fields I go through some back roads, freshly paved, with no much traffic at all, of beautiful country side roads, by the end of some of them I had to start braking wayy earlier because my pads / disc will be so hot they wouldnt grip as they do when cold, I first upgrade to 7th gen bigger disc, TRD pads and stainless steel lines and DOT4 brake fluid, while this helped a lot, I was still not happy with the inconsistency of my brakes by the end of those runs.

we can only try to guide others on how to do things properly, there will always be someone who will blow his engine, mess his brakes, create sparks while dragging the frame because he lowered the car too much, break his back due to cheap racing seats etc etc, we should warn members of unsafe WAYS of mod'ing a car, not tell them to completely stop modifying, there are always ways of properly doing things and that's what we should pursuit.

as far as locking up tires, ANY brake system will do that, locking up tires doesnt mean a brake system is capable. it just means you locked up the tires.

when does a stock celica lock up the front tires ? just before the rears ? way ahead of the rears ? this is the whole point of tuning brake system, is not for everyone, but there is a huge benefit when done properly.

for those out there who just plainly want the bling bling factor of " brembo " calipers showing up wihtout bothering with the proper way of doing this, the safest way of achieving that is buying a set of those plastic caliper covers, is just like wanting a turbo sound without doing a proper setup, only safe way is one of those turbo whistle things welded on your tail pipe.

let's all be friends again and correct each other on our mistakes and pull all in the same direction of proper development.

[BonzaiCelica]

qatar will always have a different point of view than most here, because he focus his approach purely on functionality ( which is a great thing ) but I think instead of criticizing and putting down the humble efforts of an upgrade from fellow members who are not as experience as you in proper car modifications, you should instruct and pass on your acknowledge, that how we'll grow and get better as a community.

I agree with everything you have said, and I have been looking for a safe area where I can tune my brake proportioning valve ( not installed yet ) also to help keep brake bias as intended by Toyota I'm installing GT4 brake disc as well, along with stock gt4 brake proportioning valve ( installed already )

as soon as I find a safe environment where I can safely tune my brake proportioning valve I will tune my brake system to maximize braking force while staying on the safe side of things.

we can only try to guide others on how to do things properly, there will always be someone who will blow his engine, mess his brakes, create sparks while dragging the frame because he lowered the car too much, break his back due to cheap racing seats etc etc, we should warn members of unsafe WAYS of mod'ing a car, not tell them to completely stop modifying, there are always ways of properly doing things and that's what we should pursuit.

let's all be friends again and correct each other on our mistakes and pull all in the same direction of proper development.

I'm with qatar on that perspective as well. Function. Ya I did criticize as well without properly explaining myself.

You said getting the proportioning valve from a gt4, but how about the brake master cylinder. is that necessary also. How would you maximize braking efficiency with a stock proportioning valve. Which one of the two is based off the weight of the vehicle????

[99gt3sge]

@diegohiga so did you ever get those calipers?

[Culpable04]

brake master cylinder is the same in GT4 / GT/ ST/ etc

as of right now I have GT4 proportioning valve, front brake system, rears are yet to be installed waiiting on some small parts.

for a street car with some mild road racing exposure, a proportioning valve is enough to tune the brakes, on real racing they use a dual master cylinder with a dedicated chamber for front and rear with a sliding rod that adjust the pressure given to each, this is the most efficient and very easy to adjust even while driving, but that's assuming the driver knows what and how to compensate for little things in the car, this devide is used to compensate for different levels of gas, change in track conditions etc. very very tech stuff that us street drivers wont really use and / or fully understand.

[diegohiga]

@diegohiga so did you ever get those calipers?

No. Im still looking for a set, as soon i get them, ill try to mount them on gt rotors. If doesnt work ill look for other rotors.

[Neon90424]

my buddy in his st185 said to me thats what I love about your car and hate about mine...It doesnt brake worth %!(*!

[njccmd2002]

Why do you want to upgrade, just say for the hell of it and because i have the money.

I'm speechless to this comment... a potentially unsafe change to a car that could very much be a determinant and not an upgrade and we should all get in line and scream from the roof tops, "Eff that guy, you got the money, go for it"

Continue to be speechless because this post was developed for you and i had multiple English lit professors review it.


You already gave your opinion in my post, i did not listen. Have i crashed, no. It made my braking so much better.

Swapping engines is unsafe, putting worthless kits is unsafe, hell modifi=ying a car in the way the manufacturer did not intend is unsafe, hell we all do it and even you did, so you had your time, let us have ours.

Why are you always so negative, lol, i don't know, and frankly honest i dont give a cahoot. Yes i know you are a master in the art of braking, let us the noobs have some fun and try to break and decipher a science that you already master.


We all know a single pot caliper, is better than a 4 pot brembo in a ferrari. But we all have a hypothesis and we want to prove it or disprove it.


Diego, let us know what you do, this is interesting.

im out, no more comments regarding this, i had my fun and my say so. Back on topic.

[diegohiga]

Why do you want to upgrade, just say for the hell of it and because i have the money.

I'm speechless to this comment... a potentially unsafe change to a car that could very much be a determinant and not an upgrade and we should all get in line and scream from the roof tops, "Eff that guy, you got the money, go for it"

Continue to be speechless because this post was developed for you and i had multiple English lit professors review it.


You already gave your opinion in my post, i did not listen. Have i crashed, no. It made my braking so much better.

Swapping engines is unsafe, putting worthless kits is unsafe, hell modifi=ying a car in the way the manufacturer did not intend is unsafe, hell we all do it and even you did, so you had your time, let us have ours.

Why are you always so negative, lol, i don't know, and frankly honest i dont give a cahoot. Yes i know you are a master in the art of braking, let us the noobs have some fun and try to break and decipher a science that you already master.


We all know a single pot caliper, is better than a 4 pot brembo in a ferrari. But we all have a hypothesis and we want to prove it or disprove it.


Diego, let us know what you do, this is interesting.

im out, no more comments regarding this, i had my fun and my say so. Back on topic.

I sure will.

[qatar11]

You already gave your opinion in my post, i did not listen. Have i crashed, no. It made my braking so much better.

Full marks, well done...

Swapping engines is unsafe, putting worthless kits is unsafe, hell modifi=ying a car in the way the manufacturer did not intend is unsafe, hell we all do it and even you did, so you had your time, let us have ours.

Yep, I did - I had my time, I did my engine swap, and it burnt to the ground because of it... maybe I should have thought a little harder before I did it?

Why are you always so negative, lol, i don't know, and frankly honest i dont give a cahoot. Yes i know you are a master in the art of braking, let us the noobs have some fun and try to break and decipher a science that you already master.

I am not negative, I just don't buy into the fact that you need what you are proposing. Neither you, the OP, or Culp has me convinced... Culp at least given up some context for a need to upgrade... and I think even he would agree his current braking limitations are tire based and he is not using the full potential of those brakes.

Whatever man, everyone is going to do their own thing - but don't get all pissy when some one stops you and asks why.

back to the OP,

you can get refurbished 4Runner calipers from brakewarehouse.com? for a very good price.

[njccmd2002]

Lol nobody is trying to convince you, we dont have to silly. Wait. Do you wor for the dmv. Lol. No offense but your posts Are getting old. Ok now back on topic

[BonzaiCelica]

who said they are the same?

according to this website they seem to have different part numbers:

http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/p_J_1997_TOYO...BLMZF_4702.html

http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/p_J_1999_TOYO...BLMVZ_4702.html

[njccmd2002]

i think they are different part numbers because of the shape of the reservoir, maybe the internals are the same. remember, just putting an extra tab may cause a change in the part number for a different application, even though it might be the same....