MS3PRO EVO on 4th Gen 3sgte Options

[HardHead93]

I finished up the last of the wiring for the Megasquirt. I am glad I stayed organized. All those wires could have gotten out of hand.




I installed the MS3PRO in its final home today and fired the motor up. I still was not able to get the warning light (CEL) to work. I guess all it needs is a ground to work properly but that still did not work. I may have to just ground the pinout to the sensor or chassis ground to test that the light is even working. Also, I was getting frustrated because my intake temps were reading 130+ degrees when the car was fully warmed up at idle. Then I remembered, I have the IAC pulling air from the engine bay using a breather filter. Once I got on the road and was no longer idling the intake temps dropped quickly.

I took the car for a short ride. I kept it below 3K rpm and out of boost. I let the autotune feature in TunerStudio do its job and clean up the fuel table. It rides pretty smooth. I set up a pre-turbo temp sensor in my cold air intake so I can see how much the air is getting heated up by the turbo. It looks like that even with the air running through the intercooler, the temps are 10 degrees higher by the time it gets into the motor. Not too bad. Also, I have the ECU controlling the intercooler fan based on a target intake temp.

I found a good tuner an hour away in El Paso, TX. Once I get a good enough road tune to drive it conservatively on the freeway. I will take it to him to finish off the tune.

[HardHead93]

Does anyone know how to check timing with a coil on plug setup? There is nowhere to hook up my timing light.

This is how i do it





Works perfect

Thanks I did something similar. Here is my setup for testing timing:

[HardHead93]

I have gotten my engine settings all dialed in and ready for the tuner. Below are the setting I am using. This should get anyone started with their Gen 4 3sgte with a Megasquirt. I am not providing timing or fuel maps because those may be different per engine. TunerStudio can set up a basic fuel map for you using the stock specs of the motor. The stock specs I used are:
Bore: 86mm (unless you have bored out your motor)
Horsepower: 256 hp @ 6200 rpm
Torque: 239 lb-ft @ 4400 rpm

As far as timing use this calculator to get you started.
http://www.useasydocs.com/theory/spktable.htm

PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! Do not go out driving your car hard with an un-tuned fuel and timing map. You will damage your motor. The idea behind a base map is to get the car to start, allow you to tune your idle, and calibrate sensors. You may be able to do some light driving on the car but THAT IS IT! Take your car to a tuner as soon as you feel you have worked out all the electrical gremlins that may pop up.

Engine and Sequential Settings
Control Algorithm: Speed Density
Squirts per Engine Cycle: 1
Injector Staging: Simultaneous
Engine Stroke: Rotary: Four Stroke
No. Cylinders/Rotors: 4
Number of Injectors: 4
Engine Type: Even Fire
Engine Size (cc): 1998
Injector Size (540)
Main Fuel Outputs: Inj A,B..
Sequential On: Fully Sequential
Angle Specifies: End of squirt
Injector Trim: Off
Firing Order
A:1
B:2
C:3
D:4
For the firing order make sure you have wired the injectors and coils in a 1-3-4-2 order.

Ignition Options/Wheel Decoder
Spark Mode: Toothed wheel
Trigger Angle: (not needed)
Angle Between Main and Return (deg): (not needed)
Oddfire Angle: (not needed)
GM HEI/DIS: Off
Oddfire Phasing: (not needed)
Skip Pulses: 2
Ignition Input Capture: Rising Edge
Spark Output: Going High
Number of Coils: Coil on plug
Spark Hardware In Use: Spark
Cam Input (See tooltip): CMP
Tertiary Tach Input: (not needed)
Flip Polarity On Hi-Res Tach / Cam: (not needed)
Trigger wheel arrangement: Dual wheel with missing tooth
Trigger wheel (teeth): 36
Missing teeth (teeth): 2
Tooth #1 angle: 572.0
Main Wheel speed: Crank wheel
Second trigger active on: Rising Edge

[HardHead93]

I did some research and found the injector dead time listed for the stock injectors to be 0.804ms @ 13.2V. I played around with the settings and ended up setting the dead time to 0.825ms. That was where I got the best idle. The car idles smooth at around 750 rpm when completely warm. The AFR hovers right around 14.7. SWEET!

So was having problems getting the AFRs to be consistent when I took the car on a short drive. After doing some research I found that I was using the wrong injector dead time. The reason why I started to question the injector dead time was because on my 5sfte build with 460cc RX7 injectors my dead time was 1.185ms. I figured there was no way that the dead time for my 540cc injectors could be that different. The injector dead time I was using was for low impedance injectors. For high impedance injectors the value is 1.1ms.

[Smaay]

why not use 1ZZ coils?

[HardHead93]

I spent the last few days tracking down issues to get this car ready for the tuner. The latest problem was as I was I was attempting to get a basic fuel map dialed in with AutoTune and I kept getting inconsistent AFRs. This was happening on the road and while idling. I just could not figure it out. Then I looked at the MAP gauge on TunerStudio and the MAP gauge on my A-pillar cluster and they were off by 5 in-Hg at idle. WTF! What could be causing that? After talking to a few people they basically told me that if there are any discrepancies between the software and your aftermarket gauges, 9 times out of 10 the software is wrong.

I did some looking around in the software and found that I had the wrong MAP sensor selected under calibrations. I was using a 2.5 bar MAP setting when the MS3PRO EVO is a 4 bar. I selected the correct MAP sensor calibration and like magic, the gauge and TunerStudio were within 0.1 in-Hg of each other.

[HardHead93]

I can't seem to get rid of this cam sensor fault. I have tired to ground it in multiple locations and I am still getting a lot of noise on the cam signal. It is like it is picking up the crank signal as well as the cam signal. When I ground it with the crank sensor the car will at least rev to 5000 rpm before I lose sync. All other grounds start giving me problems at 2500 rpm. I think I will need to start messing with the noise filtering function in TunerStudio.

[HardHead93]

I can't seem to get rid of this cam sensor fault. I have tired to ground it in multiple locations and I am still getting a lot of noise on the cam signal. It is like it is picking up the crank signal as well as the cam signal. When I ground it with the crank sensor the car will at least rev to 5000 rpm before I lose sync. All other grounds start giving me problems at 2500 rpm. I think I will need to start messing with the noise filtering function in TunerStudio.

After messing with some of the noise filtering settings and taking the 10k resistor off the camshaft sensor wire, I was able to get a cleaner signal. The data logs are showing the single tooth on the cam hitting like it should but their is still a little noise. Tomorrow I will take the car for a drive and mess with the filtering settings to see if I can get a clean signal.

[HardHead93]

I can't seem to get rid of this cam sensor fault. I have tired to ground it in multiple locations and I am still getting a lot of noise on the cam signal. It is like it is picking up the crank signal as well as the cam signal. When I ground it with the crank sensor the car will at least rev to 5000 rpm before I lose sync. All other grounds start giving me problems at 2500 rpm. I think I will need to start messing with the noise filtering function in TunerStudio.

After messing with some of the noise filtering settings and taking the 10k resistor off the camshaft sensor wire, I was able to get a cleaner signal. The data logs are showing the single tooth on the cam hitting like it should but their is still a little noise. Tomorrow I will take the car for a drive and mess with the filtering settings to see if I can get a clean signal.

So after almost taking the Megasquirt out back and putting a bullet in it, I figured out how to get a clean cam sensor signal. I ended up doing some digging and found that the VVTi 2jzgte guys were having the same problem with the MS3PRO. They were saying that the cam and crank circuits on the MS3PRO is wired differently than the MSX and Microsquirt. That meant if you had an older generation Megasquirt you would most likely not run into this problem. They were having the same symptoms, a clean cam signal until about 2000 RPM then it would start picking up crosstalk distortion from the crankshaft sensor and eventually the ECU would lose sync. How they fixed the problem was the following:
The NE+ goes to the CKP+.
The G+ goes to the CMP+.
The NE- is wired into the CKP- and CMP-, also the you need to jump the NE- to the sensor ground to clean up the signal.
Finally you need to splice the 1k ohm resistors that come with the MS3PRO EVO from the CKP+ to NE- and CMP+ to NE-.

I gave that a shot and like magic the cam and crank signals were now clean with no cross talk at higher RPM. Occasionally I will get a cam sync error on TunerStudio but it must be bogus because it never seems to affect performance. When I see that cam sync error, kill and restart the car the error goes away. It makes sense because from what I have read the 2jz is based off the 3s design and the gen 4 ignition system is similar to the VVTi 2jz ignition system. You could almost say the 3s is the 2jz's older (but smaller) brother. Toyota is good at reusing their technology on different cars within the same time period. I can't believe how long I spent messing around with just 1 WIRE trying to get this thing to work.

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Feb 17, 2019 - 10:39 PM

[HardHead93]

Since I am planning on getting the car tuned soon, I thought what the hell, put bigger injectors on. This will future proof me for if I want to run a different turbo or convert to flex fuel. I know I am planning to do a SWEET CT16 upgrade some time next year. The stock injectors can handle that turbo upgrade fine but it puts it up at 90% duty cycle. After doing some research I found it it not good to consistently go over 80% because it over works the injectors and can lead them to fail sooner. I decided to go with 850cc injectors, I remember reading somewhere that the stock fuel rail with a Walbro 255 fuel pump is good for up to 800cc injectors. Since I plan to stay below 80% duty cycle, I never plan to max out those injectors.


Here are some shots of the new injectors side by side with the stock injectors.




It was a pain in the butt getting those things in. The first couple times I put them in they kept leaking at the seals. After dipping all the seals in fuel and wiping out the holes in the cylinder head they finally went in right and sealed properly. Another one of those quick swap jobs that wasn't so quick.

I made the changes in the TunerStudio software and took the car out on the road. The car drove great!

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Nov 6, 2017 - 7:03 PM

[slavie]

So which 850CC injectors are these? What did they cost? I see you had to get them with plug adapters.

[HardHead93]

So which 850CC injectors are these? What did they cost? I see you had to get them with plug adapters.

They are Bosch EV14 850 fuel injectors. Attached are the test results I received with these injectors.
https://s6.postimg.org/llj9expn5/850cc_Injector_Specs140.jpg
They cost me $290 for all 4. They came with the adapter plugs and the proper O-rings for it to fit into the head and the fuel rail. You can buy these injectors on Amazon for about $40-50 a piece but they come with the wrong o-rings and no adapter plugs. The seller I went through on Ebay puts it all together for you. 1000cc injectors are going for around $400 for a whole set so the pricing seemed about right. Here is the link if you are interested.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Toyota-Celica-MR2-...6298609?vxp=mtr
These injectors only work for the gen 3 and gen 4 3sgte.

[HardHead93]

I have tracked down the last of the MS3PRO issues and now it is time to get it professionally tuned. I have found a good tuner in El Paso, TX. I was referred to him through the guys I track with. My appointment is set up for next Wednesday. I have a list of basic maintenance I want to get done before the appointment.
1. Change the spark plugs (NGK BkR7E gapped to 0.028")
2. Do an oil change
3. Make sure the battery is fully charged
4. Compression test
5. Check for boost leaks
6. Full tank of gas

I plan to trailer the car out there even though I have a basic of enough tune to drive it out there. I will post numbers after the tuning is done.

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Nov 11, 2017 - 8:33 AM

[HardHead93]

So which 850CC injectors are these? What did they cost? I see you had to get them with plug adapters.

They are Bosch EV14 850 fuel injectors. Attached are the test results I received with these injectors.
https://s6.postimg.org/llj9expn5/850cc_Injector_Specs140.jpg
They cost me $290 for all 4. They came with the adapter plugs and the proper O-rings for it to fit into the head and the fuel rail. You can buy these injectors on Amazon for about $40-50 a piece but they come with the wrong o-rings and no adapter plugs. The seller I went through on Ebay puts it all together for you. 1000cc injectors are going for around $400 for a whole set so the pricing seemed about right. Here is the link if you are interested.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Toyota-Celica-MR2-...6298609?vxp=mtr
These injectors only work for the gen 3 and gen 4 3sgte.

Word of warning, I put these injectors in and they run great but they are loud. They make a ticking noise at idle but goes away when driving the car.

[Bitter]

Put some foam sleeves around them? I know my 7G came with a foam sound isolator that wrapped around the injectors too. May cause heat issues if they run hot though.

[slavie]

Word of warning, I put these injectors in and they run great but they are loud. They make a ticking noise at idle but goes away when driving the car.

Just have to drive flat out from now on, what's the problem? If you ever get pulled over, present your very reasonable explanation, the officer will understand.

[HardHead93]

I finally got the car tuned with the MS3PRO EVO. I made 252 horsepower and 251 torque. That is up from 238 horsepower and 233 torque from my dyno session at the beginning of summer on the stock ECU. Not as much as I expected but we were having some problems with the wastegate. When I got it dyno'ed it back in the summer the wastegate was holding 16 psi with a duty cycle of 50% and 30% gain on the boost controller. Now I had to turn the boost controller up to 66% and 100% gain just to get it to 15 psi and it was having trouble holding that boost level. I think the wastegate may be starting to go bad. Also, he was running into some problems with the AFRs. Come to find out TunerStudio was reading differently than the actual values on my boost gauge. At one point the software was reading 10.5 AFR while the boost gauge was reading 11.5 AFR. This was causing some problems with knock until we figured it out. In order to fix the problem, I built a custom inc file and grounded the gauge to the engine block and the battery. This allowed TunerStudio to read AFRs from the gauge's datalog cable the same as actuals.

Any hoo, 252 hp, if you take drive train loss of 15% into account that is 296 hp at the crank. No bad for a engine rated at 256 hp at the crank from the factory. Here is the newest dyno chart:


Strapping the car on the dyno:

[url="https://flic.kr/p/2166cPw"]
[url="https://flic.kr/p/2166dvw"]

Here is the dyno chart from beginning of summer:

[url="https://flic.kr/p/HeGdtF"][url="https://flic.kr/p/HeGdtF"]

You guys are probably wondering, what changed besides the ECU from the earlier dyno session? (Then -> Now)
1. A2A intercooler -> W2A intercooler
2. Engine bay intake -> Cold air intake
3. Stock Denso 550cc injectors -> Bosch 850cc Injectors (ethanol save)
That is it.

The cool thing is I have the engine set up for a flex fuel tune (bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, and flex fuel sensor) and hopefully I will be able to get some numbers to you guys in a few weeks running e85. Is there anything else I need to change out to make sure the ethanol does not eat it up?

Other cool features/fixes set up with the ECU are the following:
1. Waaaaayyyyy smoother idle
2. AC idle up works now!
3. Car runs smoother and feels peppier even at low speeds/rpms
4. Launch control
5. Intercooler fan turns on based on IAT and coolant temps plus I can adjust settings easily
6. Check engine light for issues (oil temp, oil pressure, water temp, etc.)
7. No more governor (that one might get me in trouble )

Again, like I said, not as much power as I expected. pitcelica hit 270 hp with a MS3 on a gen 4 3sgte but it looks like they ran into some of the same problems with boost dropping off. Bottom line, every motor is different and every tuner is different so I can't expect the exact same results but I am close. The tuner I used has done a lot of 3rd and 4th gen 3sgte's and is know for his reliability which is why I chose him.

Let's see how long this wastegate lasts. ATS Racing sells a CT15 turbo wheel billet upgrade with the option to add on a new wastegate so I may be going that route in the near future.

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Dec 5, 2017 - 1:05 AM

[BonzaiCelica]

aweseome stuff. just swiftly read over your whole set up. when i have more time id like to read more on it. standalone ecu is a future goal of mine... especially removing governor and getting some fuel pressure, oil temp and volt meter gauges....

[HardHead93]

aweseome stuff. just swiftly read over your whole set up. when i have more time id like to read more on it. standalone ecu is a future goal of mine... especially removing governor and getting some fuel pressure, oil temp and volt meter gauges....

Thanks! I plan to post a wiring diagram of how I connected the Megasquirt up. I am definitely very happy with the MS3PRO EVO. It was simple to wire up and the support from Diyautotune and TunerStudio support is excellent!. I love how the software is easy to learn and they are always making improvements to it. In no way am I saying I can do a good job of tuning my own car but TunerStudio makes it easy to get your car to start and test out the various features before bringing it to the tuner.

[lagos]

Can you post up a before and after of the ignition timing map?
Any reason why you had it tuned on a dyno jet versus something like a mustang?