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![]() Moderator ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Nov 5, '07 From New Zealand Currently Offline Reputation: 3 (100%) ![]() |
QUOTE Redtop Specifications VVT-I = Variable Valve Timing - Intelligent Intake cam is VVT-I enabled Aerodynamic volume displacement (cc) = 1998 Piston bore vs stroke (mm×mm) = 86.0×86.0 Compression ratio = 11:1 Rod pin diameter = 22mm Rod big end bore = 51mm Rod big end width = 21mm Rod lendth to center = 138mm The highest output (ps/rpm) = 200/7,000 Largest torque (kg-m/rpm) = 21.0/6,000 Injector size = 315cc Cylinder head chamber compression = 33-34cc Buckets/lifters = 31mm Intake Valve Diameter: 34.5mm Exhaust Valve Diameter: 29.5mm ![]() (inside the intake manifold past the TB) ![]() ![]() someone has made 240whp (but thats with a blacktop, not a redtop) thats almost as far as I get with the BEAMS 3S-GE info (there is a repair manual floating around but costs $100, and since I dont have that engine I dont really need it) onto the 3gen, though some info still applies This post has been edited by Rusty: May 25, 2011 - 3:18 AM -------------------- |
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![]() Moderator ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Nov 5, '07 From New Zealand Currently Offline Reputation: 3 (100%) ![]() |
this from Toyota: The 3rd Generation 3S-GE:
QUOTE The 3S-GE is an in-line 4 cylinder engine with the cylinders numbered 1-2-3-4 from the front. The cranshaft is supported by 5 bearings inside the crankcase. These bearings are made out of alumium alloy. The crankcase is integrated with 8 weights for balance. Oil holes are placed inthe centre of the crankshaft to supply oil to the connecting rods, pistons and other components. The ignition order is 1-3-4-2. The cylinder head is made of The intake manifold has 4 independent long ports and utilises the intertial supercharging effect to improve engine tourque at low and mudium speeds. Both the intake and the exhaust camshafts are driven by a single timing belt. The cam journal is supported at 5 places between the valve lifters of each cylinder and on the front end of the cylinder head. Lubrication of the cam journal and cams is accomplished by oil being supplied through the oil port in the centre of the camshaft. Adjusting of the valve clearance is done by means of an inner shim type system, in which valves adjusting shims are located below the valve lifters. To replace the shims, the camshafts must be be removed. Pistons are made of high temperature - resistant aluminum alloy, and a depression is built into the piston head to prevent interface with the valves. Piston pins are the full-floating type, with the pins fastened to neither the piston boss nor the connecting rod. Instead, snap rings are fitted on both end of the pins, preventing the pins from falling out. The No.1 compression ring is made of stainless steel and the No.2 compression ring is made of cast iron. The oil ring is made out of stainless steel. The outer diameter of each piston ring is slightly larger than the diameter of the piston and the flexibility of the rings allow the to hug the cylinder walls when they are mounted to the piston. Compression rings No.1 and No.2 work to prevent gas leakage from the cylinder and the oil ring works to scrape oil off the cylinder walls to prevent it from entering the combustion chambers. The cast iron cylinder block has 4 cylinders which are approximattly twice the length of the piston stroke. The top of each cylinder is closed off by the cylinder head and the lower end of the cylinders become the crankcase, in which the cranksaft is installed. In addition, the cylinder contains a wet jacket, through which coolant is pumped to cool the cylinders. The No.1 and No.2 oil pans are bolted onto the bottom of the cylinder block. The No.1 oil pan is made of alumimum alloy. The No.2 is an oil reservoir made of pressed steel. The dividing plate also prevents the oil from shifting away from the oil pump suction pipe when the vehicle is stopped suddenly. Maintance Oil change: takes 4.5L W/ oil filter change or 5.2L from Dry fill Compression 1,324 KPA (192psi +) Minimum 1,079KPA (156psi) more later -------------------- |
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Apr 24, '08 From Orange County, CA Currently Offline Reputation: 33 (100%) ![]() |
hey Rusty, you said that the 3rd gen 3sge has more tuning capabilities than the 4th gen.
about the cams. i was looking at the 294 cam grind that presure2 did to his 5sfe. What upgradable cams are their for the 4th gen 3sge beams? -------------------- For Sale Items:
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Apr 18, '05 From Calgary Currently Offline Reputation: 20 (100%) ![]() |
not sure if there are any upgradeable camshafts for the beams 3sge but you can always have them sent out for a weld & regrind if you're out of options.
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![]() Moderator ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Nov 5, '07 From New Zealand Currently Offline Reputation: 3 (100%) ![]() |
what you not happy with the BEAMS power?
![]() there are a few, depends if you want the vvti operative or not? the 294 cams your talking about... QUOTE (Celicatech) The 294 grind by webcams is just a reference number they use, not the actual duration. The actual duration at 0.050" is 218 degrees, so they are a really mild cam. I dont know about regrinds due to the vvti system, but something you can look into. anyway if you do go inoperative vvti, you might want to look at your head, the blacktop BEAMS has VVT-i oil control hole, in the head for the vvti, I'm not sure if the redtop has it or not, but apperenlty you have to bung it up. from the TRD website http://www.trdparts.jp/english/parts_engine-3s-ge.html -------------------- |
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Apr 24, '08 From Orange County, CA Currently Offline Reputation: 33 (100%) ![]() |
Umm the vvt-i only applies to the intake manifold on the 3sge beams redtop. if you change cams on the altezza's 3sge beams engine. that will affect the vvti becuase blacktop beams has vvt-i on intake and exhaust cams.
but since there is not much mods for the redtop beams, grinding cams or getting performance ones is something i was thinking about. This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Aug 9, 2009 - 6:46 PM -------------------- For Sale Items:
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![]() Moderator ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Nov 5, '07 From New Zealand Currently Offline Reputation: 3 (100%) ![]() |
QUOTE Umm the vvt-i only applies to the intake manifold on the 3sge beams redtop. if you change cams on the altezza's 3sge beams engine. that will affect the vvti becuase blacktop beams has vvt-i on intake and exhaust cams. what are you on about? yea those where the cams I was on about, but I cant find a website for them. -------------------- |
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Apr 24, '08 From Orange County, CA Currently Offline Reputation: 33 (100%) ![]() |
that the cams do not effect the vvt-i on the beams redtop becuase the vvt-i is on the intake manifold.
those are customs parts i tried searching gbooth on bigpond.net.au but i couldnt find him. Ill just post something on the website to see if i can get some prices and hp/ torque numbers with those mods that are listed on that page. what you not happy with the BEAMS power? ![]() No im happy with the power of the beams, especially considering that im coming from a slow 7afe engine, so it will be a nice upgrade . I just want the most power out i can get out of the engine! And if all works out with me finding a engine clip in 2 years from now, i really want to race an integra type-r on the track and quarter mile ![]() im looking for about 80 whp gain with beams swap.... This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Sep 9, 2013 - 1:17 AM -------------------- For Sale Items:
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Feb 11, '08 From Auckland, New Zealand Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
QUOTE 3.gen 3SGE M/T In: 252deg, 9.8mm lift (timing 7/65) Ex: 240deg, 8.2mm lift (timing 53/7) 3.gen 3SGTE In: 240deg, 8.7mm lift (timing 7/53) Ex: 236deg, 8.2mm lift (timing 50/6) Why? QUOTE Compression 2. gen 3SGTE 8.8:1 3.gen 3SGTE M/T 8.5:1 Why? -------------------- Mike W
1996 Toyota Celica ST205 GT-FOUR GT2860RS turbine, TiAL mvr44, JE 86.5φ piston, Clutchmasters FX400, APEX P-FC 269awhp / 273ft-lbs |
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Enthusiast ![]() ![]() Joined Apr 20, '06 Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
Cyclinder Head QUOTE Gen3 The cylinder head has the valve clearance shims under the bucket. Gen4 The cylinder head is Gen 3 type but has variable cam timing on the inlet only. The cam cover is red & has the word “beams” in silver script. thats not true, the gen 4 is not a gen4 type with variable cam timing, its a completely different head, nothing between them is compatible, the cam angle is different, the conbustion chamber is completely different , the valves in the beams are bigger as are the buckets. I have one sitting here in bits if an illustration is needed. There are tuning options for the redtop, i see the name gbooth mentioned, he is the guy to talk to, you can get hold of him through the beams redtop forum and he will supply you with anything you need to tune a redtop or blacktop beams. Cams are not compatible between the red and blacktop though. Its well worth retaining the vvti when tuning it aswell. Theres a 240whp redtop in a gen 5 celica that mr booth built, peak power is at 8600rpm ![]() |
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Mar 22, '07 From Murphy, TX Currently Offline Reputation: 5 (100%) ![]() |
Found this - not sure if its already been found - but just thought I'd share.
Not sure how much different in extra HP if any from the OEM - but it looks nic. Price is expensive too. Aftermarket Header Fujitsubo 3SGE Beams Header |
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Enthusiast ![]() ![]() Joined Apr 20, '06 Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
Found this - not sure if its already been found - but just thought I'd share. Not sure how much different in extra HP if any from the OEM - but it looks nic. Price is expensive too. Aftermarket Header Fujitsubo 3SGE Beams Header sorry 2bcelica but thats for the pre beams ss3, you can tell because the flange where it meets the head is very different, as the port spacing and shape is tottally different, as is the bolt pattern, its a real pita to find a manifold for the beams, i think the only one is the phoenix power unless you go custom. That fujitsubo manifold i think would fit any gen 3 3s-ge ![]() |
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Mar 22, '07 From Murphy, TX Currently Offline Reputation: 5 (100%) ![]() |
Found this - not sure if its already been found - but just thought I'd share. Not sure how much different in extra HP if any from the OEM - but it looks nic. Price is expensive too. Aftermarket Header Fujitsubo 3SGE Beams Header sorry 2bcelica but thats for the pre beams ss3, you can tell because the flange where it meets the head is very different, as the port spacing and shape is tottally different, as is the bolt pattern, its a real pita to find a manifold for the beams, i think the only one is the phoenix power unless you go custom. That fujitsubo manifold i think would fit any gen 3 3s-ge ![]() darn it - |
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![]() Moderator ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Nov 5, '07 From New Zealand Currently Offline Reputation: 3 (100%) ![]() |
QUOTE thats not true, the gen 4 is not a gen4 type with variable cam timing, its a completely different head, nothing between them is compatible, the cam angle is different, the conbustion chamber is completely different , the valves in the beams are bigger as are the buckets. I have one sitting here in bits if an illustration is needed. There are tuning options for the redtop, i see the name gbooth mentioned, he is the guy to talk to, you can get hold of him through the beams redtop forum and he will supply you with anything you need to tune a redtop or blacktop beams. Cams are not compatible between the red and blacktop though. Its well worth retaining the vvti when tuning it aswell. Theres a 240whp redtop in a gen 5 celica that mr booth built, peak power is at 8600rpm ![]() just wondering if you ment "thats not true, the gen 4 is not a gen3 type with variable cam timing" I know what your saying, (its just not a gen 3 head painted red) yes it is differnet, but I think what they were simply trying to say was its similar to the 3gen but close up there are quite a few difference as you point out. by all means post up pics really need more info on here, as there isn't too much floating around, (I can hopfully find the 3gen sizes etc to compare) one thing I really would like to know are the camshaft sizes (duration and lift) and if you have any more info on the redtop beams ive missed please post it up ![]() delusionz im not to sure, NA require it as this is how they make their power (which is why a 3gen can run up to +300deg cams) -------------------- |
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Feb 11, '08 From Auckland, New Zealand Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
Wonder if the GE would make a better head to swap to the GTE engine... and also give some low end torque back to the GE engine?
Or maybe just the intake camshafts? This post has been edited by delusionz: Aug 16, 2009 - 3:51 AM -------------------- Mike W
1996 Toyota Celica ST205 GT-FOUR GT2860RS turbine, TiAL mvr44, JE 86.5φ piston, Clutchmasters FX400, APEX P-FC 269awhp / 273ft-lbs |
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Dec 15, '02 From Tasmania(Australia) Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
Wonder if the GE would make a better head to swap to the GTE engine... and also give some low end torque back to the GE engine? Or maybe just the intake camshafts? better off spending your money on your head, cams bigger valves etc. -------------------- ST205 Group A Rallye GT-Four, #61 of 77............600hp GT3582r
GRX133 Toyota Mark X 350s ![]() |
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Enthusiast ![]() ![]() Joined Apr 20, '06 Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
just wondering if you ment "thats not true, the gen 4 is not a gen3 type with variable cam timing" I know what your saying, (its just not a gen 3 head painted red) yes it is differnet, but I think what they were simply trying to say was its similar to the 3gen but close up there are quite a few difference as you point out. by all means post up pics really need more info on here, as there isn't too much floating around, (I can hopfully find the 3gen sizes etc to compare) one thing I really would like to know are the camshaft sizes (duration and lift) and if you have any more info on the redtop beams ive missed please post it up ![]() delusionz im not to sure, NA require it as this is how they make their power (which is why a 3gen can run up to +300deg cams) yeah sorry i wasnt having a go at anyone, i'm really not like that its hard sometimes to not sound like that on a forum, i spend a lot of time correcting information about the beams ![]() The head i have here is actually from a blacktop beams, but they are the same casting, the only difference being the blacktop has some extra machining done in a couple of spots one of which is the exhaust side vvti solenoid, and the other difference is the machining on the last cam journal on the intake side, both of which is just left undrilled on the redtop, maybe if someone has a gen 3 head we can compare the differences. The only other head i have here is a gen 2 3s-gte which maybe someone is interested in comparing, if so let me know. Here is a link to some of the tuning parts available, those are the best cams you can get for the redtop, throw out any idea's of using cams similar to those used in the gen3 or other 3s engines as the vvti makes for a very different animal, and you cant use blacktop cams. http://www.beams-redtop.com/redmods.htm Gen 4 3S-GE (Redtop) : Power - 200ps (197bhp) @ 7000rpm Torque - 21kg-m (152ft.lb) @ 6000rpm compression ratio - 11:1 Cam duration (IN/EX) - 256°/244° ( timing is -2~43/78~33 thats the vvti range) Cam lift (IN/EX) - 10.5mm/9.2mm (53/11) Valve diameter (IN/EX) - 34.5mm/29.5mm Throttle body diameter - 65mm Injector size - 340cc (going by the book, flow testing puts them at 315cc) Notes - VVTI top of the head - i think overall it is a lot narrower because of the valve angle. ![]() Intake side. ![]() Exhaust side. ![]() Underside. ![]() another shot of the underside, the combustion chambers are about 20cc smaller than those of the previous gens ![]() if you want more pics let me know, the rest of the head is sitting in a box. This post has been edited by Edophus: Aug 16, 2009 - 6:35 PM |
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![]() Moderator ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Nov 5, '07 From New Zealand Currently Offline Reputation: 3 (100%) ![]() |
QUOTE yeah sorry i wasnt having a go at anyone, i'm really not like that its hard sometimes to not sound like that on a forum, i spend a lot of time correcting information about the beams ![]() nah your alright, I know what you mean when you say stuff, the way people interpret what peple say can be different on a forum. QUOTE Gen 4 3S-GE (Redtop) : Power - 200ps (197bhp) @ 7000rpm Torque - 21kg-m (152ft.lb) @ 6000rpm compression ratio - 11:1 Cam duration (IN/EX) - 256°/244° Cam lift (IN/EX) - 10.5mm/9.2mm Valve diameter (IN/EX) - 34.5mm/29.5mm Throttle body diameter - 65mm Injector size - 340cc (going by the book, flow testing puts them at 315cc) Notes - VVTI awesome thanks for the specs I was missing, I'll add those to previous info so we dont confuse anyone. QUOTE 3.gen 3SGE M/T In: 252deg, 9.8mm lift (timing 7/65) Ex: 240deg, 8.2mm lift (timing 53/7) compression 10.3:1 4.gen 3SGE M/T In: 256deg, 10.5mm lift Ex: 244deg, 9.2mm lift compression 11:1 only a slight increase between them, but that would explain the 19BHP difference ![]() http://www.trdparts.jp/english/parts_engine-3s-ge.html that one off hole (oil hole) inbetween cylinder 1 & 2 is for controling vvti right on the blacktop? same on the redtop or is it that extra machinering your talking about? -------------------- |
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Enthusiast ![]() ![]() Joined Apr 20, '06 Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
that one off hole (oil hole) inbetween cylinder 1 & 2 is for controling vvti right on the blacktop? same on the redtop or is it that extra machinering your talking about? thats there on both, i assume on the blacktop it just feeds both solenoids, whilst on the redtop just feeds the one. The extra machining i'll highlight on those pics at some point but busy at work right now! |
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![]() Moderator ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Nov 5, '07 From New Zealand Currently Offline Reputation: 3 (100%) ![]() |
yea i thought it'll be the same. right onto the tuff question how many degrees does it advance & retard(on blacktop)?
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