'95 Gt Conv. 3SGTE Swap, Consolidated Info. I still have qstns. Options

[Falstaff]

I'll be upfront and say I'm no mechanic--I'm an architect. It basically means I like expensive things I can't afford and am easily confused. I'm looking to swap out my '95 Celica GT stock engine with the venerable 3SGTE I've read about over the last couple of days. My priorities are a) significant increase in performance, b) still street legal (in Massachusetts) c) the best value in terms of dollars spent to performance returned d) reliability e) repairable in reasonable time frame.

Based on my review of the posts, this is what I have distilled as the most useful/relevant information.

The "best" engine would seem to be a 3rd generation 3SGTE, though this seems to be a subject of some debate; there seems to be a case for a second gen as well. From postings elsewhere on this and other sites:

"Due to request, below are the horsepower figures for some of the 3S-GTE engines:
1st Generation - 190 HP(USDM '87-'89 Celica All-Trac), 187 HP(JDM '87-'89 Celica GT-Four)
2nd Generation - 200 HP(USDM '90-'93 Celica All-Trac, USDM '91-'95 MR2 Turbo), 221 HP(JDM '90-'93 Celica GT-Four, JDM '89-'94 MR2 Turbo), 231 HP(JDM '90-'93 Celica GT-Four RC)
3rd Generation - 239 HP(Non-JDM '94-'99 Celica GT-Four), 241 HP(JDM '95-'99 MR2 Turbo), 251 HP(JDM '94-'98 Celica GT-Four)
4th Generation - 254 HP(JDM ST246 Toyota Caldina GT-Four)"

"get a 3rd gen 3sgte from a 1994 up mr2 jdm the one with the lsd tranny.(if you get the celica 3sgte you would be wasting too much money on the intercooler and tranny which you would not be able to use and if you dont get the ecu and harness with the motor, the mr2 ecu and harness is more available in the states than the alltrac.but ideally you should be going stand alone if you are about to undertake such a project)if you dont have someone who can do custom work esp.mig or tig welding,access to a machine shop forget it! getting the set up is kinda easy but its to put it all together thats where the problem starts."HYBRID":resulting from the combination of two or more mechanically dissimilar origins!"

Second it seems that it is wise to buy the front end clip for parts:

"The advantage to buying a front clip is that you will get all of the vital components to make the engine run. You will get the maf unit, resistor packs, ignitor, ignition coils, intercooler, turbo pressure sensor, uncut wiring harness, and throttle cable. Good luck finding these if you buy the motor alone. I like the way Jarco runs their business. www.jarcoinc.com Almost every 2nd gen 3sgte clip they have is $2200 plus about $500 shipping. "

Third you will need some additonal parts/modifications:

Among the biggest headaches appears to be the wiring harness.

"THE WIRING HARNESS--
This isn't my department!!! Send both harness to Michael Coury of Top
Shelf Racing. He has experience with this. I believe he's done three
or four so far. www.topshelfracing.com
You have to send out the entire harness, the 4 interior plugs from your
old harness, and the plug from your old fuse box. These 5 plugs will
be spliced into the 3sgte harness.
The only advice that I can offer here is that your harness needs to be
extended 33". Don't take the wiring from the old harness. Go buy some
wire so that you have the harness for the old motor. It's easier to
sell this way. Cut one wire at a time. You will lengthen the wires
somewhere near where the harness enters the firewall. Buy some heat
shrink tubing to cover the open wire. Remove plastic coating using
wire cutters on the wire connected to the harness and from on both ends
of the wire cut 33" long. Twist the two together. Place two pieces of
heat shrink tubing(2") over the open end. Twist both ends together and
solder the wires with electrical solder. Use solder flux and the
solder will melt right in between the wire. The solder should have a
shine to it. Place heat shrink tubing over exposed wire and heat with
a small torch or blow dryer may work."

"THINGS TO CONSIDER
1)Depending on how much you break down the engine you most likely will
need gaskets and gasket seal. Throttle body gaskets(dealership),
intake manifold gasket set(advanced auto).

2)Make sure that when you order your tranny(if you have to)that you
have a throw out bearing and clutch fork.

3)With a new clutch disk and pressure plate you need to get your
flywheel turned. It's a good idea to have brake cleaner to clean the
flywheel, and clutch disk when you put the tranny on.
You'll always need the Pressure Plate that matches up to the engine
block(3sgte Pressure plate), and a GT Clutch disc, GT throw out bearing
and GT clutch fork that match the Tranny.

4)Get all of the new parts you'll need ahead of time. In my case, I
waited on a piece that goes under the passenger side motor mount for 7
weeks.

5)You will use three 4 motor mounts from the 1994-1999 gt. If you have
an ST, make sure you have all the pieces ordered from the dealership for
that mount ahead of time. Or I suggest getting the from a junkyard.
Those little pieces are hard to come by they may be on back order.
There are 3 pieces and a bolt to the passenger side motor mount."

RE the Clutch:

"... use a 5sfe disc with the 3sgte PP and FW"


My intention is to find a 3rd generation 3SGTE and have it shipped to my favorite mechanic, Doug, at Hometown Auto in New Hampshire, a brilliant mechanic and a great guy. With any luck he'll make sense of all the parts and pieces and put my car back together for me. I'm hoping to keep the project cost below $4K.

What I expect to buy:
1) Engine and front end clip for parts including:
-the engine
-uncut wiring harness
-ecu
-ignitor
-ignition coil
-resistor pack
-maf unit
-top mount intercooler
2) 3sgte Pressure Plate
3) Custom wiring harness
4) Walbro 255lph supra NA fuel pump for 6th gen
5) gaskets and gasket seal.
6) Throttle body gaskets
7) Intake manifold gasket set
8) Custom exhaust work to extend pipes and make street legal.

What am I missing?

[Digndoug]

hey, Im in Md an im well kind an architect too!... how cool is that... ok well i dont know enought o help ya on all that... i just thought that was cool.. well good luck

[Jabberwock]

Maybe missing...?

1. Full Custom Exhaust Setup (downpipe, midpipe, extending piping doesn't seem like the right thing to say, and STREET LEGAL???hehe)
2. Possible FMIC Vx. TMIC
3. Custom intake, the airbox just doesn't fit too good
4. FULL tune up (Timing Belt, water pump etc.)
5. New Battery
6. New Starter
7. Custom Axels depending on which tranny
8. Make sure you have all the connectors from the front clip including the relays.
9. Fluids (Transmission, power steering, etc..)
10. Shifter Cables if you have a ST
11. Trouble Shooting

12. There are problably more missing though, there is always some hidden parts depending on the engine.

[Chrobis]

im doing my swap, and not including wiring, parts and labor are at about $2,200. Thats replacing most of the seals, tranny fluid change, coolant flush, water pump, timing belt, timing belt pulley's, drive belts, timing adjustment, clutch, clutch install, oil change, cam seals, thermostat, thermostat seal, valve cover seal, etc etc...

Their is a big list of stuff you should do (you dont need to, but if some of this stuff is bad the engine could have to be pulled back out to fix some of it.)

[Supersprynt]

I'm looking to swap out my '95 Celica GT stock engine with the venerable 3SGTE I've read about over the last couple of days.

uh oh

I read and researched this swap just bout lil over a year before i made a move.

This post has been edited by Supersprynt: Mar 5, 2004 - 8:40 AM

[Falstaff]

Any more thoughts on street legality. I won't do this if I can't pass MA emissions.

TX

[jayi12-15psi]

If I were you, I would forget about it being legal, and just try to make friends with someone at your local emissions test site, I've heard that you can pass with the second gen, I'm unsure about the 3rd gen.

[Supersprynt]

I dont see how the 2nd and 3rd would be any different.

The entire swap is illegal because the engine doesnt have any emissions controls. Find a mechanic thats willing to overlook that portion of the test.

[jgreening]

With the convertible, chassis flex (especially cowl flex) may be an issue when significantly increasing horsepower. Because it is a front wheel drive car, the portion of the car behind the front wheels will want to lift under power. (A rear wheel drive car does just the opposite - applying significant power tends to push the cowl downward - not to mention chassis twist as a result of torsional forces of the engine). After chopping the top, essentially only the bottom frame keeps the car from flexing up and down under power. Unlike cars designed as convertibles (i.e. Miata, C5 Corvette, etc), the Celica was manufactured as a Coupe and chopped by American Sunroof Corporation in California. As a result, all stock chassis stiffening is essentially an afterthought. I am currently researching what was done by ASC during production so that a judgement can be made about what will need to be done before the swap. I am leaning toward having some subframe connectors custom fabricated and perhaps adding side tower braces if not already addressed by ASC.

[obi1kinob]

Great info jgreening, I look forward to more.

edit:
I found some cool stuff at bulletproofautomotive.com but their Rear Braces wont fit on coupes. Anyone know which part of the chassis actually NEEds the support? (can i skip on the rear braces?) Jgreening have you talked to them yet?

This post has been edited by obi1kinob: Mar 6, 2004 - 9:16 PM

[jgreening]

Obi1

I havent talked to BulletProof yet but I have seen the stuff on their site. I particularly think that the side tower braces would be helpful. However, once again, I do not know what ASC has done and until I find that out, I am not buying anything. The guy I have been working with at ASC has promised some diagrams by March 20. We will see.

Jay.

[Falstaff]

I've talked to my mechanic. He suggested to me that with some "creative vaccuum leaks, etc" you can get by the emissions question. So the next question is where to source this engine. I've read enough bad things about Toysports that I'm reluctant to do business with them, despite the fact that they said they could source everything. Any suggestions on where to look for a 3rd gen 3SGTE engine in good shape along with all the relays, sensors, wiring, etc. that will be needed? I'm open to buying the whole front end clip, but shipping becomes ridiculous unless I happen to find one in MA. I've been quoted $1/mile. Any thoughts?

Thanks!

[presure2]

well my first thought is to say go with a 2nd gen engine, the parts for the 3rd gen a MUCH harder to source because the 3rd gen was never in the U.S.
2nd. your right about toysport, stay away from them FAR away..lol try jarcoinc. or one of the other places
3rd where in MA are you? im in fall river (about 50mi.S of boston)

[Falstaff]

Thanks Presure2.

1) Do you think you get enough HP out of the 2nd Gen engines to make the swap worthwhile? Is there enough upside? I figure I'm going to spend $4-5K by the time all is said and done. I've heard suggestions of using a 3rd Gen head with a 2nd gen. Any other ideas?

2) Too bad about TS. They have a lot of useful information, and apparently a lot of access to parts. I'm not willing to deal with liars and cheats, and from all accounts thats exactly what they are.

3) I'm in Cambridge/Boston.

4) Do you have any experience with one of these swaps? Able to get past the inspection?

[qatar11]

To answer some Q's
1) you are not going to believe how fast the car is with a 2nd gen motor, let alone a 3rd gen motor... yes there is a 30 HP swing, but there is no torque increase, which is what you will feel the most anyway... I'm currently pricing motor parts for a 3rd gen 3SGTE - and they are pricey.

2) I agree

4) Depending on your laws you may need to pass a visual inspection (i.e they will look for EGR equipment on the motor) having said that, it is rumored that these motors will pass emissions without EGR equipment on them.

As far as the wiring goes, the process has been optimized nowadays.. we no longer lengthen the whole harness by 30 - odd inches, we take apart the harness and reorganize it so it will fit just like a stock harnness and the amount of lenghtening has been reduced, however it is more work for me (oh well :-) )

[Falstaff]

gatar11: Thanks for the EGR clarification. I take it from your note that you've had some experience wiring these harnesses? Do you provide this as a service? I'll be looking to have someone do this for me.

BTW has anyone done a diagram for this?...seems like it would be a VERY useful bit of information given the number of comments I've seen on the difficulty of the electrical work for this swap. Even with the diagram, I'm still going to have a harness made by someone who knows a) what they're doing and b) how to make sure the connections won't fail/corrode. I live in Boston. The very mention of the city makes sloppy connections short-out in fear.

[qatar11]

Falstaff - Yes i have wiring harnesses coming out of my ears at the moment, business is booming, please check my website!!

Diagrams are bad for business!!! I would encourage everyone to steer clear of 3SGTE wiring harnesses that are posted on the internet

and I do believe that people @ alltrac.net have a few pinouts for the adventageous people out there

[audiophile24]

[Falstaff]

Jut wanted to let everyone know that I sent a letter to DEP in MA regarding the legality of the swap I have in mind (refer to first post in thread.) DEP said that a JDM engine should pass in MA and that there is not a visual test.

2nd vs 3rd. That's still a question. I like the idea of $900 vs $2,800. But I also like the idea of low miles vs high miles, even for a Toyota engine. I'm currently debating the merits of rebuilding a 2nd gen engine in lieu of a 3rd--e.g, buy the second gen and hone the cylinders, replace the pistons and rings, possibly change the head. Any thoughts on this?

I'm curious if any of you with 3SGTE experience have a sense of how much oil they typically burn. My mechanic assures me that anything high-performance is going to burn some oil. What are we taling about, practically speaking?

[shid]

I'm definetly having some second thoughts about a 3gste swap in my vert. I've been driving it rather hard lately, and the top if starting to squeak. Bad. bad bad bad. Also, we have bracing in the rear!!! It's what the Manual-Auto switch button is on. Strut brace! woot!