 Sliding on wet roads? |
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 Apr 23, 2004 - 8:08 PM
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Enthusiast  Joined Nov 9, '03 From Dayton, OH Currently Offline Reputation: 2 (100%)  |
Understeer...I guess thats what you can call it...seems like these cars might have alot of it? The car does handle really well, actually it Almost handles as well as my 3000GT with aftermarket suspension. I have yet taken it to its limits on dry road or wet. But when it is wet sometimes i just play with it taking a corner and twitch the wheel alittle farther while im turning and watch the front hop straight for a minute. It just seems to do it too easy is all. But i do beleive upgraded suspension would take car of most of that. SO you guys with aftermarket suspension must not remember what its like to drive a stock celica
 I know i cant remember how my 3000 was when it was stock..you just get so used to it.
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Apr 23, 2004 - 8:12 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Mar 3, '04 From Las Vegas Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
know your cars limits, i know all 4 tires can slide out from under me on smooth DRY concrete if i take a corner too fast/tight and i have my car dropped 2.5 inches(granted my tires suck). i know my car understeers if i get on the gas too early when turning. btw... what gave you the idea that low-pros have good traction in the rain? my suggestion for everybody is to take up autocrossing. thats the best way to learn your car.
Preston |
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Apr 23, 2004 - 8:20 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Nov 9, '03 From Dayton, OH Currently Offline Reputation: 2 (100%) |
I never said low-pro's give better traction. They have less sidewall roll and make the car ride harder but thats about it. I was just stating the type of tires on mine and my g/f's car and both act pretty funny when turning in the rain. My g/f had sunfire before she got the celica..in the sunfire its just like every other car i have driven and there isnt much of a problem with sliding even when you turn the wheel really hard on wet roads..but when she got the celica she found out the hard way and slid around alittle 
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Apr 23, 2004 - 8:23 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Nov 9, '03 From Dayton, OH Currently Offline Reputation: 2 (100%) |
BTW...the tires on my celica were about 130$ each !! awww...i didnt buy them though. They are nice tires i have to say but not any better than the cheap kuhmo's i like
Anyways, its not a wet traction issue with the tires...the car has excellent traction but once you turn the wheel just alittle more...to the side it likes to go.
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Apr 23, 2004 - 8:28 PM
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 Enthusiast Joined Sep 12, '03 From Portland , Oregon , United States Currently Offline Reputation: -1 (33%) |
Yeah Just sayin I had the Same Problem expect I learned where that point was, so I would Break it loose when I wanted too. I had 4 really bad tires, and really bad brakes, so mabey that helped.
DTE -------------------- I am a thief.
do not buy anything from me. |
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Apr 23, 2004 - 8:41 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Mar 3, '04 From Las Vegas Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
kumhos are great tires my friend autocrosses them on his cooper S and they do take a beating
you kinda contradicted yourself there didnt you? unless you meant something else
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Apr 23, 2004 - 11:05 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Nov 9, '03 From Dayton, OH Currently Offline Reputation: 2 (100%) |
Going straight and taking off the line when wet isnt a problem at all so i would say they do have good traction. -------------------- |
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Apr 24, 2004 - 12:58 AM
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 Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
Heh... honestly now guys... you need to re-think your driving habits. If you're going wayy wayy too fast into and coming out of a turn... then it's understeer. You're looking to get yourselves killed in you're understeering in the rain. It's not a matter of judgment or ability or tires... it's a matter of stupidity. The only time you understeer... too much speed into a corner and not slowing down trying to accelerate through it. Tires have little/nothing to do with it in the rain. If you're just sliding and losing traction in regular stop and go driving, (dry road, wet road) then it's bad tires. Speaking as a person who has autocrossed and rallycrossed a 6th gen celica... they're fairly neutral stock with proper braking. They're predictable, slow, they stop/slow down well, and they're well balanced with good spring rates in stock trim. There shouldn't be any traction issues because of the stock suspension. If you're having traction problems, let alone 'breaking loose' the rear-end not because of bald tires... then I'd say you better re-think those driving habits. FF cars don't loose rear-end traction unless you have TERRIBLE rear tires... or you're actually trying to do it... even in the rain. That's the nature of a FF set-up. Predictability. Have fun with your cars... and do it safely.
-------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Apr 24, 2004 - 1:49 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Nov 9, '03 From Dayton, OH Currently Offline Reputation: 2 (100%) |
i drive this car slow...the freaking thing bearly wants to move and have to bob my head to make it go fast
Actually i like driving the celica cause when i jump in my 3000GT it feels like a freaking race car.
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Apr 24, 2004 - 11:26 AM
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 Enthusiast Joined Sep 22, '02 From Detroit Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
I don't know what kind of Kumho's you have, but the Ecsta 711's I had sucked. They were about $100 a piece and had horrible traction.
My favorite tires are Bridgestone Potenza RE730($150 a piece for 205/50/15), though I have RE910 on now(all season Potenza, about $140 a piece). Between the two, the Kumho slide like mad and were actually less predictable when they got warm. I get more traction out of the RE910 then I did out of the Kumho 711. As far as the rear sliding, I don't have to use the ebrake on dirt(Rallycross) or when it rains. Every car has it's own charecteristics, and the Celica is easy to slide, you just have to become more sensitive to the input. It's there, you just have to be missing it.(Or your Kumhos are giving you problems like mine did). |
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Apr 24, 2004 - 11:34 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
I'd like to know how you slide the rear without the e-brake. It's very interesting to me that wheels which are being dragged can slide on their own with control being maintained... -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Apr 24, 2004 - 12:26 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Aug 31, '02 From KC Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
The Michelin Pilots that came on my 97GT were terrible in the rain after they got a little wear, it really did feel unsafe in wet turns even at lower speeds, The stock 7th gen 16"wheels and Yokohama A680 tires are MUCH better in the wet, but dont handle as good in the dry. I'm now looking at either Continental Conti-Extreme or Cooper Zeon 2XS for all-around everyday driving. anyone have experience with either of these?
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Apr 24, 2004 - 12:31 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Nov 9, '03 From Dayton, OH Currently Offline Reputation: 2 (100%) |
Im getting kuhmo 711's on my 3000GT. Its not my daily driver and i dont drive it in the rain unless i have to so it doesnt matter to me. On my celica i have 215/45/17 Kelly HPT Chargers, Pretty decent tires to say the least. -------------------- |
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Apr 24, 2004 - 2:13 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Sep 22, '02 From Detroit Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
I thought it was you that mentioned the Kumho. I was just skimming over quickly. As for the Kelly, I haven't used them, but I've always trusted Bridgestone. I've had Sumitomo(don't bother, they suck), Firestone(Firehawks on the 85 RWD Celi, they were decent but slid some in the wet), Kumho(hated them), and a couple other off brands(on the Hyundai) that I didn't care for. As for sliding the rear, like I said it has to be in the wet or in the dirt for a FF car. You can use the cars weight with a 'Scandanavian Flick'(turn the opposite way and then back quickly). It takes some getting used to, but there are a couple corners that I can get a full four wheel drift in the rain. I've tried in the dry, and can get the rear to come out a hair, but nothing like when it's wet. I used the technique a lot when I was Rallycrossing too, when I started I had to use the ebrake all the time, but eventually learned how to control the car better and could do it without the ebrake without thinking about it. |
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Apr 24, 2004 - 3:16 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
Doesn't work. What you're mentioning is a weight-shift feint drift technique... which doesn't work in a FF car. You can weight-shift, but all it'll do is understeer, then correct. I say again... the rear wheels are being pulled... so they follow the front wheels only... They can't break traction by themselves unless you e-brake or stop/slow/reduce traction directly to the rear wheels somehow. It'll do the same in the rain or dirt... it'll just do it with less driver input because of limited traction. -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Apr 24, 2004 - 9:19 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Mar 4, '03 Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
Kwanza you are wrong mate, you can get them out with a flick. I wouldn't exactly call it drift, more like a slide
but you can do it.Bufferdan I think you are crazy. The understeer in our cars is awesome, I know within a mm of how far i can push before i lose it. I am always getting a bit of front slide happening through the wet hill drives, you just need to know when to accelerate. What you are talking about will NOT happen if you don't have your foot on the gas. And only when you are in a certain zone when your wheels are excessively turned and you are going a certain speed (accelerating at about 25 kph). You are talking about spinning your front wheel (inside) or wheels in the wet which then causes understeer... it's usually the inside one because bodyroll will lift it up... this happens because you have carried too much speed into the corner and are oversteering to get out of it. |
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Apr 24, 2004 - 10:13 PM
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 Enthusiast Joined Nov 4, '02 From Hecho en la Republica Dominicana/Living in NJ Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
New Wet/Dry Tires
This post has been edited by macavely: Apr 24, 2004 - 10:13 PM -------------------- |
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Apr 24, 2004 - 11:23 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
You guys are confusing understeer with rear traction loss. Like I said in my before post... Even with weight shift... you can't get the rear wheels to break traction opposite of the front wheels (without direct input). The only time the rear breaks traction, and slides, is when the front does also (under normal driving). That's understeer. That's just how the car works. Say for example, if you're coming out of a corner with understeer... and then feint, the rear will kick in response to the weight-shift and steering correction... but it'll correct to follow the front. It's not even what one would consider a slide... If you count the understeer as the slide... then yes... that's a slide... but the only real way to lose traction in the rear (while maintaining fron traction and control) on a FF car is to pull the e-brake, or run mismatched and thrash the hell out of the rear tires. I think many of you need to go out to the track and try it before you imagine it. It happens very differently from what you all are thinking. Also... this has nothing to do with drifting. It's just basic physics on why a FF car can't lose rear traction without direct input. That's why traysliding was invented... This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Apr 24, 2004 - 11:24 PM -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Apr 24, 2004 - 11:58 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Jan 20, '04 From princeton, new jersey Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
thread was too long to read through but i don't know if anyone has mentioned that all frontwheel drive cars have bad understeering problems...if your coming around a turn with a f- drive car to fast when its slick the car will start sliding the direction the car is facing the rear wheels won't slide but the fronts will go straight instead of the direction they are pointing in because of the momentum of the car...and uhhhh why is it that you were taking a turn that fast when it was slick out? were not in nascar...and we don't have pit crews lol not trying to be a dlck but when its slick out you can take fast turns espeacially in a front wheel drive car
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Apr 25, 2004 - 12:21 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
I think you're a bit confused. I read your post again... and yeah... you have the 2 mixed up slightly. First off... Understeer, although can be fun... is terrible in racing. You want to understeer as little as possible... cause understeer forces you to slow down. If not... the more you accelerate during and understeer... the more you will understeer. As for correcting understeer... well... that's where skill comes in. If you change the steering and let off the gas... you spin. FF cars are very forgiving... and still... you'll spin. It's even worse with FR and MR. The only way to correct understeer, is to ride it out while slowing down and/or slowdown before the turn and avoid it all together. You don't want to overcorrect to fix the understeer... because then you'll still have to be accelerating to keep the car in control. On a FF car... it's very very hard to fix underteer with acceleration and overcorrection. At higher speeds... that will most likely cause more understeer. Anyways... the techniques I mention are for high-speed track runs, and you shouldn't even come close to those situations. If you do... I hope it's not on a public street. -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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