 What makes our engines so underpowered?, Compaired to JDM's and other countries? |
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 Apr 24, 2004 - 4:09 PM
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 Enthusiast  Joined Feb 8, '04 From KY Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%)  |
What is it that causes our engines to be so under powered? Is it the ECU's, or what?
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Apr 24, 2004 - 4:42 PM
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 Enthusiast Joined Oct 1, '02 From Seattle, WA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
Keep in mind that the 5sfe and the 7afe are old engines with decade old architecture...
having said that, its just the way they are dsigned, They were built for economy, not performance. Not all 4 cylinder engines are made equal. This post has been edited by orvillescelica: Apr 24, 2004 - 4:44 PM -------------------- Its Orville's Celica, i just drive it... |
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Apr 24, 2004 - 4:53 PM
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 Enthusiast Joined May 15, '03 From Aurora IL Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
some people will say head design... it's an F series so it wasn' really designed for performance... I say it's because our cars were produced during a time where imported "sports" cars werent really in demand. If you think about 94-99 there arent too many other imports that were being sold here in the US with any amount of balls to them. After 2000 companies started realizing people wanted more power, and imports started catching on.. they basically almost doubled the output of the celica with hte GT-S model.. not exactly doubled, but an extra 20 and you'd have twice as much power as an ST.. but pretty much the same amount of torque as a GT 
This post has been edited by sinner96ST: Apr 24, 2004 - 5:00 PM |
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Apr 24, 2004 - 5:05 PM
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 Enthusiast Joined Feb 10, '03 From Connecticut Currently Offline Reputation: 11 (100%) |
Its not because theres no demand, theres always been a demand for power. However, Toyota had the Supra and used that as power. The Celica was the sporty, eco car. And if you think about it, The Integra Type R, Honda Civic Si, Mazda MX-6, RX-7 were all import cars in that time era with plenty of power.
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Apr 24, 2004 - 5:12 PM
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Enthusiast Joined May 15, '03 From Aurora IL Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
well, you listed honda/acura & mazda. As of today, I could list you about 2-3 dozen imports right now with enough balls to completely destroy us. It is demand, in some way shape & form. Take a look at all the cars we've got out now on the road, Mitsu, Nissan, Mazda, Honda, Hyundai, Acura, Subaru.. Toyota's MR-S and the solara, and the GT-S celica. It's just a trend. People want sporty 2 door cars right now, more than they ever do. I believe if the 6gc would be re-released as of today, it would most definately be 3S powered, or something damn close to it. It's small 2 door sporty cars, or SUV's nowadays. We just missed the curve by a generation, thats all. This post has been edited by sinner96ST: Apr 24, 2004 - 5:18 PM |
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Apr 24, 2004 - 5:42 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Sep 22, '03 Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
I think you are wrong sinner96ST...I agree with Supersprynt.
Back in the day Nissan, Infiniti, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Honda, Acura, Hyundai, Mazda, Lexus and Subaru all had high powered cars. Nissan - 300ZX, 240SX (Non-Turboed Silvias) Infiniti - G20 Toyota - Supra, MR2, Celica Alltrac (GT4) Mitsubishi - 3000GT, Eclipse GSX, VR4's, Galant VR-4's Honda - Civic SI, Prelude Acura - ITR, GSR, Legend, NSX, CL, TL Hyundai - Tiburon, Elantra (Have been out for more than a decade) Mazda - RX-7, MX-6, MX-5, MX-3 Lexus - SC300, SC400, GS300, GS400 Subaru - 2.5RS Sinner you are comparing with the Solara, GT-S celica, and MR-S which aren't as high powered as the Eclipse GSX's, RX-7's, MR2....etc PLUS NOW, there are no RX-7's, supras, MR2's, ALLTRACS, but there are the few new cars which are sweet. Its not really the demand but the decision of what cars to bring out to the USA and what to make. The Auto Manufacturers seem to go in a phase every 5 years where there are Super cars, then economic cars, then super duper cars, the demand of cars probably more effect on the cheaper end....performance cars tend to be costly and focused on people who have 'money." If you think about it on the evolution of celicas the 5GC and 6GC are a lot better than the 7GC in that they had the 3SGTE.....7GC's didn't come out with AWD turbo cars to compete with the Rally cars out now. Concluding that the Auto Manufacturers just decide what they want to sell and what they think would make more of the money during that perioud. |
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Apr 24, 2004 - 6:02 PM
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Enthusiast Joined May 15, '03 From Aurora IL Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
No, you're right.. there were other cars being released. Again, I'm stating that there really werent any cars with any serious amount of balls during 94-99 like there is today. We missed the curve, if you honestly believe that engine specs have decreased since 94-99, you are absolutely out of your mind. Nowadays it's not uncommon for that RSX, WRX, or 350Z with at least double the output of any 6gc out there today, stock. It just so happens toyota wasn't really doing anything during that time period. Now what do we have? The Scion line. This post has been edited by sinner96ST: Apr 24, 2004 - 6:22 PM |
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Apr 24, 2004 - 8:37 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Jan 22, '04 From bellingham, WA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
lol @ decade old architecture.... the A series motors were designed back in like 1983.... so, by today's standards it's over a 20 year old engine design |
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Apr 24, 2004 - 8:39 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Sep 22, '03 Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
Well the matrix is pretty good for toyota...hehe maybe the caldina has a chance in the US..hehe?
Honestly 94-99 did have a lot more high powered cars than now. Here is a list of cars that I think are better than cars now. Nissan 300ZX...Twin Turbo and can be modded to be faster than the 350Z Nissan Silvia...not really a US car but who doesn't have a SR20DET in their Toyota Supra...nuff said Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX....the newer generation just can't compare Mitsubishi 3000GT...can you say VR... Mazda RX-7...RX-8 isn't as good and the RX-7 TT ROTARY! 6GC out there today...man GT-4 ST205 just kicks A$$!!! WRX can't compare except for the STI...RSX has no chance....350Z I would rather have the GT4. But you are probably comparing to the US SPECS hehe... However the output of 94-99 was much greater than now. 300ZX VS. 350Z, Supra VS. ? Eclipse GSX VS. Eclipse GT 3000GT vs. EVO(not a good comparison though) RX-7 VS. RX-8 You get the point but I am sure that the newer ones would not easily beat the older models. 94-99 was great for performance but sucked for American 6GC's. Compare those and you will notice the drop in horsepower but mainly because of the disappearence of turbos. But you have to understand that the reason TOYOTA didn't have much of a line in 94-99 is that the supra was doing great for high performance, LEXUS was doing great for luxury, and toyota had the moset sales for any car....camry. Now if you compare cars worldwide....6GC's were just on the top of performance with the Beams and GT-4's. |
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Apr 24, 2004 - 8:39 PM
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 Enthusiast Joined Mar 21, '03 From Pittsburgh, PA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
A Hyundai Elantra!? Oh god, that might be worse than a Cavalier....
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Apr 24, 2004 - 9:42 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 21, '03 From Houston, TX Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
The only advantage i see the newer ones having is that they are lighter... or should be for that matter
but the Newer celicas do have more HP then the older ones of the same type(GT, ST ect...) But all in all the older cars are better i got my celca b/c the new ones look gay and dont drive as well in my opinion. |
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Apr 24, 2004 - 9:43 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Sep 22, '03 Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
hehe yeah elantras are pretty bad but thats what hyundai has racing.
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Apr 24, 2004 - 9:48 PM
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Enthusiast Joined May 15, '03 From Aurora IL Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
I love the look of my car, but honestly, i'm paying sports car insurance for a car with not even 110 @ the crank. It seems to me if I were to buy a newer (insert model here) that it would come with almost double the horsepower right out of the factory. I hear a lot of people ask why toyota decided to put a 7afe or a 5sfe in to a celica shell. It just seems like a lawnmower engine in a lambo, it makes absolutely no sense.
A lot of those cars you mentioned were highly tuneable, it just seems that given the release of toyota's previous sports cars, (mr-2, alltrac, supra, celica) you would've think they would have carried them all the way up until 2000, if not further. Hence the reason why I throw out the demand reasoning out there. I should do more reading to find out exactly why they just quit selling MR-2's and Supra's in the states. They just didn't sell? If the demand was always there, why not stick with a highly tuneable 3sgte or 2jz until this very day? Seems they did it everywhere else but the United States. I've seen crazy numbers come out of 3s / 2jz dynos with stock blocks. It's about money too but really, having a 'sport' divison of your car company would logically make sense to appeal to the gearheads & speedfreaks that are on this planet.. This post has been edited by sinner96ST: Apr 24, 2004 - 9:49 PM |
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Apr 24, 2004 - 10:03 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Apr 4, '04 From VA, USA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
"I hear a lot of people ask why toyota decided to put a 7afe or a 5sfe in to a celica shell. It just seems like a lawnmower engine in a lambo, it makes absolutely no sense." like jabber said they had the supra for power. there is no point to put out to power cars. the 6gc was ment more for looks. and is it not sexy? they put in those 2 engines cause its meant to be a daily driver car. and they know those are good engines that last a long time(dont u just love toyota engineering). "I should do more reading to find out exactly why they just quit selling MR-2's and Supra's in the states. They just didn't sell?" they werent in demand. the sale for those 2 cars drematically decreased. why? cause SUV(Stupid Ugly Vehicle) were the new trend. it was around that time when suv's blew up and ppl loved them. so what did toyota do? said f**k the sports car were doin SUVs now. ta da the highlander is introduced. and i think sequoa round that time. now ppl want sports cars again. voila the volta. |
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Apr 24, 2004 - 10:07 PM
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Enthusiast Joined May 15, '03 From Aurora IL Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
yeah.. the engines are meant to last forever, but as of todays standards, they are kinda dinosaurs. I mean mine is a 96 and i have the same engine that was put in to a GEO PRISM.
This post has been edited by sinner96ST: Apr 24, 2004 - 10:09 PM |
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Apr 24, 2004 - 10:17 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Jan 22, '04 From bellingham, WA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
toyota put lower motors in the celica at that time because for toyota, it wasn't their sports cars... which were the mr2 and the supra....
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Apr 24, 2004 - 11:01 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Mar 3, '04 From Hollywood, MD Currently Offline Reputation: 6 (100%) |
i dont see the big hype about the celica gts, its only got the 180hp at 7,600 rpm , at its peak
2 of my friends bought celicas , both autos, one a gt, one a gts the gt had intake and exhaust and the gts was stock and the gt won the intake and exhaust was probably cheaper than the cost to upgrade to GTS now if you want the car sure the extra 40 hp is nice but remember because of vvti-l its only at its peak that it gets such a gain |
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Apr 25, 2004 - 12:04 AM
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 Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
You know nothing... Auto 7gc GT-S are 17 second cars... which is about equal to an Auto GT. The auto tranny makes little to no use of the VVTLi. The reason the power peaks so high in the rpms... is because that's what it's designed to do. It's hard to build a high-powered 4 cylinder both small, and high-powered without that design. Valve timing and lift. That's the jist of it. That doesn't mean it's useless... or anything like that. It just makes the car slightly more difficult to drive because of the lack of low-end power. Full explaination on n/a 4 cylinders and how/why they make their power: If you want big low-end torque... look at the stroke. The stroke is what makes the big low torque numbers... but also, because of the stroke, the engine won't be able to revv effectively or reliably. Big torque 4 cylinders such as the 5SFE and Nissan's QR25 (2002+ Sentra SE-R V Spec) have large strokes. Both makes very large torque numbers in the low range (145 ft lbs and 175-180 ft lbs respectively)... but limited high-end HP. Although their HP numbers nearly equal their torque numbers... their hp per liter is no where near as good as high-revving high powered 4 bangers. The only reason the Nissan motor makes 175-180 hp is because of its size. You just can't have the most torque with the most HP all in the same n/a 4 banger. Now for the high-powered 4 cylinders... they revv to make their power. They have much smaller strokes (usually high-revving 4 cylinders have less than 87mm stroke) and they have much much higher compression (to make the most use of their high-end ability). That makes the engine put out a lot less low-end torque... so why do they make so much power? Valve timing and lift. Like pure racing motors, these engines have very agressive duration and lift cam lobes stock. In actuality, they can have anywhere from 2 different sets of cam lobes... to even 3 different sets per camshaft. Each lobe boasts a different duration and lift for its rpm range... so the big power maker, the most agressive lobes, are set for the highest range, when the engine is making the most induction. Basically, you can get as much as a 80 hp jump in some VTEC motors to toyota's 40-50 hp jump in the 2ZZGE. It's like nitrious! The it's done like that... so you can have a smog legal streetable cam profile in the lower rpms, while also having a racing inspired cam profile in the high-end. You can't have just the racing profile alone, because that will make for crappy emissions and extra crappy low-end. Now... both together... stroke and revvs. Honda has tried it... with the H22's... but that got too expensive really quick (H22 powered cars had a base price around 25k). They had to build the bottom end extra extra strong to balance out the poor rod ratio in the big stroke high revving H22s. That sucker had 195-225hp with a very very nice torque band around 150-160 ft lbs. Sounds good... so why'd they get rid of it? Expensive. I'm not even gonna mention Toyota's fabled BEAMS 3SGE... cause that's all it is. FABLED as with all of the 3SGE's. People have said that engine dynos anywhere from 150 whp to 160whp... which is far far less than where it's rated (rated at 197-200 bhp). That even includes the drivetrain losses... but also note: the 3SGE's were built as 'in between' as it got. 86mm bore, 86mm stroke. Perfect displacement and stroke for great low-end torque, and good enough rod-stroke ratio for stock revolutions above 8000 rpms (stock was a bit less)... Even still... that's old tech (90's tech). With today's technology... it all sums up to the Honda K20A. Perfect 'in-between' design (86m bore and stroke... 1998 cc displacement... EXACTLY the same as the 3SG's) with great low-end response and a LOT of high-end horsepower. They make anywhere from 160 hp 145 ftlbs of torque (K20A3) in the Civic SI... to as much as 220 hp and 150 ftlbs of torque in the K20A5 (Integra type R or RSX type R). There are VERY large differences also in these motors. K20A3's have iVTEC only on the intake side... while the K20A2 (RSX-S) and K20A5 (RSX-type R) have iVTEC on both intake and exhaust cams. These things are the sum of all above mentioned technology combined. My cousin has a Civic SI (heavily modded) and he revvs his to 8900 rpms daily without any troubles. His car can probably lay down a mid 14 second pass if not faster... we don't know yet... but he has beaten an H22 swapped 2 door accord that ran a 15 FLAT by about 4 car lengths... so that's my guesstimate. Anyways... know the technology behind each motor... before you can really say what's better than what. You want torque or power?... that's the question. This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Apr 25, 2004 - 12:06 AM -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Apr 25, 2004 - 12:37 AM
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 Enthusiast Joined Jul 12, '03 From Chatham, Ont Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
Im sick of hearing a bunch of kids bitch about cars that arent being made, because even if they were being made you wouldn't be able to afford them!
 I'd like a show of hands of who can lay down 30k-50k for a new high end sports car? Just what I thought, be happy they made all those great cars in the 90's and now they are cheap enough for punks like us to buy. And even still theres plenty still being made, Wrxsti, Evo, 350z, g35, rx8, mrs(has potential!), celica gts (also has potential), s2000, rsx, srt4(for the dumbestic guys) and Im sure theres more I cant think of. Some of those dont have huge numbers, but a little tuning and maybe a turbo and your in business. And stock all those cars would spank a 6gc. |
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Apr 25, 2004 - 8:22 AM
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 Enthusiast Joined Mar 21, '04 From united kingdom Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
i assume its due to fuel, the 100ron rating of jap fuel allows them to run advanced ignition timing, this apparently gives a higher power rating.
Also car companies have to modify cars for each different market. Americans generally prefer softer suspension compared to the europeans according to car manufacturers so they have to modify that. This obviously brings about a problem with higher end sports cars. Youve got to think about the FIA rules of homolgation too for rally cars, there obviously wasnt the demand in the states in the early 90s for a rally derived japanese sports car. Another thing is that the US has many trade rules that benefit american companies and penalise non american companies.Toyota probably thought at the time after learning lessons from st185 sales, that it wasnt worth going through all the US regulations, on a car that doesnt make them much of a profit anyway. This post has been edited by uzthedentist: Apr 25, 2004 - 8:30 AM -------------------- GT4 ST205 79 modifications and rising!!
spec list: http://sox-japoc.co.uk/forum/garage.php?mo..._vehicle&CID=10 |
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