 Looking for advice on performance, Swap, hybrid, rebuild? |
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 Oct 1, 2004 - 9:08 AM
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 Enthusiast  Joined Aug 31, '02 From Philadelphia, PA Currently Offline Reputation: 8 (100%)  |
think of it this way.....what motor would give you the best potential? the 7a? the 5s? or the 3sgte? then start building that up to reach your goal.
with just a 3sgte swap, youll be able to take out any honda out there, and have a very fun to drive celica. -------------------- 15PSI - 30MPG - Megasquirt Tuned
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Oct 2, 2004 - 7:31 AM
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 Enthusiast Joined Oct 16, '02 From Hohenwald, Tennessee Currently Offline Reputation: 1 (100%) |
I've been looking around at some of the swaps done here. I really don't know if I'm ready to do a swap. The only person I really know that knows anything at all about cars is John, and he's a good 30 minutes away. I work 12 hours 5 days a week and would only be able to do work to the Celica on weekends. Whether I do an engine swap or a head swap, it's going to take a lot of time. I don't really want to trouble John with all of it, nor trouble myself with having to drive to his house every weekend. Plus, I don't know anywhere to store my car while I'm working on it. I would rather do a head swap in all honesty. That way I can just find a cheap, semi-low-mileage 7a-fe and then swap the engines when I get the wiring and all that done. I know it's not going to be that easy, but that would seem to take some of the stress out of swapping. I also don't have another car to drive. So I really have some planning to do.
But since I've been looking around, the 4a-ge silvertop swaps have really caught my eye. It's a really nice looking engine and has decent power to be n/a. The only thing I wonder is can it be turboed on the stock internals? If I could get that engine up to around 220bhp I would be more than satisfied. On the other hand, like Coomer said if you're doing a swap you might as well find a 3s-gte for it. In the end, all I really want is a turboed engine running around 18psi, because the sound of a BOV gives me that nice warm feeling in those nice warm places 
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Oct 2, 2004 - 11:33 AM
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 Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
The silvertop can be turboed... but the internals are not the best for it. Compression is at 10:5:1 and is not the bst platform for a turbo application, unless of course you're gonna modify the internals. A 20V turbo would be a tricky set-up. As for 220 bhp... again... your goals are very ambitious. it's much easier said than done. As for a head swap... it's not different than a complete swap. You're still gonna have a lot of wiring to be done, and even more work under the hood than a normal swap, so I'd reccomend you just go with a normal 3SGTE swap if you insist on "swapping in" something with immediate power. I personally think you need to do more research. 18psi cannot (can, but not reccomended) be done on anything with stock turbos or internals... -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Oct 3, 2004 - 4:19 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Oct 16, '02 From Hohenwald, Tennessee Currently Offline Reputation: 1 (100%) |
I've read about everything I possibly can about it, and I have plenty of time to read more. It will probably be spring or summer before I can start working on this, since I have quite a bit of cosmetic and suspension work planned. I'm just wanting to get an early start on this so I can learn what I don't know about swapping and/or boosting.
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Oct 3, 2004 - 6:34 AM
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 Enthusiast Joined Jun 29, '03 From canoga park , ca Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
i feel as though the 7a isnt getting enough credit. if you build up all the internals and port and polish. you could get that baby boosting about 9 psi. also throw in all your other stuff pulleys cam gears ignition ecu injectors etc. i feel and i will soon find out that the 7a-fe is going to have more potential then anyone ever expected. im going to be workin on a 7afe over the next year by myself. rebuilding and fixing and replacing everything. with stronger lighter faster parts. it wil be fast it will run hard. and it wont die!
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Oct 3, 2004 - 11:03 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Oct 16, '02 From Hohenwald, Tennessee Currently Offline Reputation: 1 (100%) |
I'm just not too interested in boosting an engine that is using a fuel-efficient head. I'm also not too interested in fooling with my 7afe, seeing as how it has over 151k miles on it. I have intake and exhaust, along with some Denso Iridium plugs, and that will probably be the most of what I'll do to my engine. The 7a tranny isn't very impressive either, and as far as I know there are no alternatives. I've been looking for info on the potential of the 20V 4age silvertop, but I'm having minimal luck. I did find someone that has a boosted 4age, but as far as any details there were none listed. I haven't found any luck sourcing performance parts for the 4age, which really bothers me. With the stress this is causing me, I'm ready to fix the Celica and trade it in for something else. Now I'm gonna go pop a few Midol...
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Oct 3, 2004 - 11:41 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Sep 28, '04 From California Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
I agree with Kwanza26. If you are going to do any sort of rewiring then you should go with the 3sgte point blank. It is already turbo and in its stock trim you are already well over the power the stock 20valve has. 20 valve engine is a fun engine but is really for road racing. If you turbo it then you will need to change the internals. Most will use 4agze pistons as they are plug and play. The money you put in buying a 20valve and then building a custom turbo kit and you are already over the price you would have paid for the 3sgte (unless you get 2nd hand parts and 2nd hand work) which in my opinion is the better of the two engines from a performance aspect as well as a bullet proof setup. The next setup I would recommend would be the 4agze swap as you will receive a front wheel drive tranny with axles and if it is a 101 then you have Lsd! 20 valve is for road racing guys that are trully committed to it. However, if you plan on doing extensive work and completely doing the 20 valve up with pistions and turbo, then yes it will set you back, but will yield greater gains over the 4agze. From an instant power standpoint in which you do a swap and drive off, then it should be 3sgte then 4agze point blank and if anyone says any different then they have not been doing this long enough. Ron (909) 283-3778 Motors Unlimited |
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Oct 3, 2004 - 12:20 PM
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 Enthusiast Joined May 22, '03 From NOVA Currently Offline Reputation: 16 (100%) |
"i feel as though the 7a isnt getting enough credit. if you build up all the internals and port and polish. you could get that baby boosting about 9 psi. also throw in all your other stuff pulleys cam gears ignition ecu injectors etc. i feel and i will soon find out that the 7a-fe is going to have more potential then anyone ever expected. im going to be workin on a 7afe over the next year by myself. rebuilding and fixing and replacing everything. with stronger lighter faster parts. it wil be fast it will run hard. and it wont die! "
i agree with him on this ^^ if you do these: a)port and polish b)3angle valve c)bore to 82mm d)4agze pistons e)blueprint and balance(not sure if the p&p would come with this?!) f) cam regrind g)pulleys h)flywheel and clutch you could easily do 12psi on a 7afe it just takes the money and time to do it right and the determination to work on a 7 lol its one of those pride things in your car......personally i think the biggest amount of pride i would have would be saying "yea thats the original motor and a 7 at that!" then "yea the original engine sucked so i swapped it out for a different one" This post has been edited by playr158: Oct 3, 2004 - 12:21 PM |
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Oct 3, 2004 - 2:46 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
It's not that it's not getting credit, cause it definately has proven itself under boost, but as far as parts and power goes, it lacks. There are no cam gears (not to mention the 7AFE has only one cam gear), no ECU programs short of a standalone, and pulleys make little difference. It just lacks in certain areas, but things like that do not heavily affect how the engine will respond under boost. The deal is, the guy wants 220bhp which is probably not doable with the stock 7AFE internals. I would estimate 220bhp out of a 7AFTE to be at least 12psi well tuned.
Good start, but It's been said that 4AGZE pistons do not reduce compression, in fact, it raises compression significantly when compressing to the 7AFE head. IF you look at the designs, it tells a whole lot why that is... so that pretty much will strike out using 4AGZE pistons to lower compression in a 7AFTE set-up. As for blueprinting and balanceing... expensive and not needed unless you're gonna heavily modify the internals. Cams also are not a necessity for a boosted motor, although it's always a nice upgrade. I personally would do things differently... but that's just me. The compression in the 7AFE is low enough and can be brought down a bit more with a thicker headgasket, that you can boost a bit higher, so long as you supply ample amounts of fuel. The weakness is in the stock rods and pistons... -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Oct 3, 2004 - 4:57 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Jun 29, '03 From canoga park , ca Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
oh i know that with stock internals it will suck. but like i said im leaving nothing stock. im also cryo freezing whole whoel thing after im done. im getting the turbo and manifold on tuesday. and the engine next month. and ever ymonth something different ,its gonna be fun. casue no one will ever expect a 7a-fe to have the power this bad boy is gonna have.
and even still 220 is a pain in the ass goal i recomend that you read the fourms a lil bit more and get used to your powerplant and then make your choice. but everyone has a different expirence. there was one guy on here waited 1 yr to get his baby back. another guy waited like 2 months, its all different. but go in it with an attiude of my car is the best and im gonna make it better. and on the terms of a fuel efficent head. the 5s is one of them to. the best heads for toyota are the ge's. but i think i will have to disagree with kwanza i have 2 cams on my 7a if ijm not mistaken.
This post has been edited by shadycrew31: Oct 3, 2004 - 5:03 PM |
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Oct 3, 2004 - 5:05 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Jun 29, '03 From canoga park , ca Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
oh one more thing kwanza do you know if the 4a's rods and pistons will pop right in. or do i need to modify that alot.
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Oct 3, 2004 - 6:14 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
You do have two cams... but they're drive by a single cam gear. It's an economy set-up... hence there's only one cam gear... ;] The later model 4AGE pistons will fit (20 mm wrist pins), but none of them can effectively reduce compression for a turbo set-up. As for the rods, I believe the later models do fit also, but they'll effectively reduce stroke length thus slightly reduce displacement and compression. It's not the best way to reduce compression because it takes away displacement... and also, the reduction is unknown. -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Oct 3, 2004 - 7:05 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Jun 29, '03 From canoga park , ca Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
i wish i had your bain kwanza. your like a toyota dictionary. serioulsy if i had money id pay you to just write all your knowledge down. and make a book. then i would sell that book and get a commsion on your knowldge. i get 20 you get 80 deal??. lol
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Oct 3, 2004 - 7:49 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Oct 16, '02 From Hohenwald, Tennessee Currently Offline Reputation: 1 (100%) |
Haha, yeah he's right. The 7a DOES have 2 cams and 2 cam gears, but only one of the cam gears is driven by the crankshaft. The other cam gear is spun by the other one.
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Oct 3, 2004 - 7:55 PM
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Enthusiast Joined May 22, '03 From NOVA Currently Offline Reputation: 16 (100%) |
couldn't we figure out a way to drive them seperatly?
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Oct 3, 2004 - 8:13 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Oct 16, '02 From Hohenwald, Tennessee Currently Offline Reputation: 1 (100%) |
You'll have to ask Kwanza about that one. All I know is how they work, I've never actually torn apart a 7a to take a look at them, so I don't know if there are any ways to rig it up to where they're both driven by the crankshaft. Just guessing from the top of my head, I wouldn't think there would be a way.
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Oct 3, 2004 - 9:38 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Jun 29, '03 From canoga park , ca Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
dont those cams are so small in the 7a, it makes you feel like you have a biggest penis on earth. trust me its depressing. but im going to be rebuilding the whole 7a. so i will take pics along the way. and let you know how much i have at the end i expect to get 400 hp out of it. and its posible... ive seen a 750hp 3sgte .nothing in the engine caa be left stock though. and everything must be cryo'd. but i will fill yall in on my lil journey into the 7a. aqnd there is a way to get them both spining you just need the money.
This post has been edited by shadycrew31: Oct 3, 2004 - 9:39 PM |
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