3S-GTE vs modded 5S, just thinking Options

[miami305]

I would modify a 5s instead of swapping in a 3s-gte if i ever wanted my car faster. Getting at least 300hp for our lightweight cars is more than enough to beat most anything on the road, its too bad i drive like grandma. Doing the 3s-gte swap .. just too much crap that can go wrong or worrying what might go wrong, whereas modding a 5s-fe is relatively less of a burden, and there's nothing wrong with a turboed fwd engine. The most powerful fwd engine i ever seen was boasting 1000hp.

[rlan214]

cams 30 hp

[sapperk]

Im all for the 5 SFE turbo,it makes sense..

so what is the difference in a performance engine 3SGTE as oppose to an economy engine 5SFE? besides the obvious , horsepower,

[Inferno]

I'm still going for the 3S-GTE.

[Guest_Matthew_*]

the only main difference is that the 5S-FE is a 2.2 Liter Inline 4 and the 3S-GTE is a 2.0 Liter Inline 4

[west_minist]

Please also remember that there is a 3SGE out there.

You do not have to go to the 3SGTE to get some power.

You can get the 3SGE which come standard with 180HP 94-97yrs.

With that power, you are well above the 5S mark. You can then turbocharge that car to 220+hp.

The thing is, you can go it to the way to like it.

[Jussimple]

Ahhhhh, its threads like this that make this site my home to be.

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

i would have to say a carefully turboed 5s-fe, or a 3s-ge, because getting parts for a JDM engine like the 3s-gte will prove to be more costly in the long run, i would think. Besides, the 5s could be tweaked to some decent horses with a good turbo set-up and eliminate the need to rip out your whole engine for a swap, although to make it reliable you might need to beef up your internals a little bit. the 3s-ge is a good route too, because although it might be harder to find parts than a 5s-fe, it would produce some very reliable N/A power for you.........so basically its your call to whichever you find easiest Personally, would rather tune up my 5s-fe.

[jayi12-15psi]

where can I find web cams?

[edo17982]

http://www.webcamshafts.com

This post has been edited by edo17982: Mar 30, 2003 - 1:18 PM

[97sccelica]

well initially, if you turboed the 5sfe it would be cheaper, easier and faster(by faster i dont mean speed wise, although it might be, i mean less down time) and with the upgrades you listed, throw in a thicker head gasket and you should be good to around 12 psi(which is what burien toyota runs there celica at intercooled)

of course the 3sgte and 3sge will always outperform the economy engines we have.

another difference besides displacement is the head design and compression ratios. the CR on the 3sge is high and not good for turboing and the 3sgte is either 8.5 on the 1st gen, 8.9 on the second gen, 8.5 on the 3rd gen, and 9.0 on the 4th gen. The heades on all 3sg(t)e engines are geared towards performance and are more free flowing


oh and technically, either way you go you will not pass emmisions. the 3sg(t)e engines are clean enough but they lack the emmisions equipment and the 5sfe with all those mods would never pass emissions. the trick is to have a friend with a testing center

This post has been edited by 97sccelica: Mar 30, 2003 - 1:48 PM

[Guest_Matthew_*]

sigh

you can not raise boost pressure by just getting a thicker head gasket.

You talk about compression. Compression in the 5s-fe, I believe, is around 10.5 or so. So that would make it even more unstable when running boost. With the 3sgte you can get the one from an st185 and all those parts are readily available in the u.s. That engine has just as much potential as the one from the st205.

And buying internal parts are a hell of a hot easier to get a hold of than parts for the 5s-fe. With that engine you would more than likely have to get some custom work done. Which is expensive.

So if anybody does turbo their 5s-fe trying to reach 300hp or w/e PM me because I have another 5s-fe for sale.

[hiflytsi]

QUOTE (igotta5S-FEturbo @ Mar 30, 2003 - 11:30 AM)

sigh you can not raise boost pressure by just getting a thicker head gasket. You talk about compression. Compression in the 5s-fe, I believe, is around 10.5 or so. So that would make it even more unstable when running boost. With the 3sgte you can get the one from an st185 and all those parts are readily available in the u.s. That engine has just as much potential as the one from the st205. And buying internal parts are a hell of a hot easier to get a hold of than parts for the 5s-fe. With that engine you would more than likely have to get some custom work done. Which is expensive. So if anybody does turbo their 5s-fe trying to reach 300hp or w/e PM me because I have another 5s-fe for sale.

...because I bet you have a 5sfe turbo. Am I right! AM I RIGHT! Huh HUH!

[Guest_Matthew_*]

i do have a turbo. but there is no way that i would try to get 300hp out of it. i run like 8 or 9 psi. what the hell does that have to do with anything anyway?

[snadman]

Now now children. Let's not fight.

This engine swap vs. turbo stock is a very controversial issue and has many sides depending on how you look at it....let's go into it area by area.

Legalities:
Any type of engine swap is illegal unless it's the engine that was offered in that car originally. Like say if you had a 96 Supra TT with the 2JZGTE engine but you hated the fact that it was only offered in automatic plus you really liked the fact that the 98 versions of the Supra TT were offered with VVT-i which gave you an extra meaty 5 more horsies. Now this is legal. The cars had the same chassis code and engine code so this is all legal. However, if you start changing any internals or the engine code itself, this is illegal. The 3sgte engines were not offered in the Celicas with a ST204 chassis code only the ST205, so this is illegal. On the contrary, the engine code for the 6th gen GT's was 5S-FE not 5S-FTE. Even if it's not officially like that, this is still changing the internals to a point where it is illegal.
The verdict: Both choices get zero points in this category.

Availability of Parts (Non-Performance Parts):
Since the 3S-GTE was offered in the the US versions of the 90-93 Celica GT-4 asw ell as the 90-95 MR2 Turbo, there will be readily available parts. Obviously, since the 6th gen GT was offered with the 5S-FE in the US, it will also have readily available parts. In other words, for any of those concerned it's not a concern.
The Verdict: Both get one point for this topic.

Availability of Perfomance Parts:
The 3S-GTE clearly owns this area. You can basically get everything for these engines and then some. The availbility of upgraded internals is there as well as turbo upgrade kits. The 5S-FTE has endless possibilities, but only if you're will to fabricate some parts as needed....so this would apply to any car that you turbocharge yourself.
The Verdict: 3S-GTE gets a point here.

Safety:
If you're not careful when turboing your 5S-FE, you may need a new engine soon. These engines weren't made to carryt turbos, but with the correct internals you can make it safe. The 3S-GTE was made for turbo and was amde ot handle a lot of horsies.
The Verdict: 3S-GTE gets a point here again.

:::SCORE:::
3S-GTE: 3
5S-FTE: 1
Wait a minute, two more areas of discussion.

Price:
The 5S-FE, if you buy the Burien kit as well as intercooler and other needed things that aren't included, can cost close to $4,000. This may seem like a lot but consider that the average 3S-GTE shipped will cost you, on average now don't bite my head off, $2,500. That is not necessarily including unexpected things either. For instance, if you get the clip from an imported GT-4, you will not be able to use the wiring harness form that vehicle, because it's for a right-handed driver vehicle. You will need to find the almighty rare wiring harness for the left side, unless you redo everything in which case you'd be better off importing a GT-4. I've heard costs of the 3S-GTE swap csoting in the upwards of $5,000...sometimes more if you ge tthe newest generation 3S-GTE with low miles and not a clip. That's another thing, you don't want to swap in an engine with 94xxx miles if your 5S-FE has 104xxx. This kind of defeats hte purpose, you are trying to upgrade...and this means maintainance wise too I'm sure. You want to spend extra money on upgrading your engine not fixing it, so you're going to want a low mileage 3S-GTE.
The Verdict: Point for the 5S-FTE.

Ease Of Installation:
The 3S-GTE swap can be done...possibly...over a weekend if there's more than one person working on it. The 5S-FTE conversion can be done easily in a weekend with one person, maybe even in just a day if you work from early in the morning until about dinner time with minimal breaks. Also, dependings on which 3S-GTE you get, the difficult increases. The swap can be a very painstaking process, and oyu pretty much make the instructions as you go because there will most definitely be surprises. With the 5S-FTE conversion, you will not have to really prepare for the unexpected as much because there are written instructions and everything you need will be there for your need. There will be no little extras like with the 3S-GTE. If you do the swap, you may find yourself or your buddies that help you asking the same question over and over "Where does this go?" The first few times you may even fix it right there at the moment and figure it out, but as you get more tired and more frustrated with it, you will not be able to think as clearly and you may get mad and not be able to figure things out as you could earlier in the day. It all comes down toy uor emotional stability, which if I were to talk about that it would be off of the subject from ease of installation.
The Verdict: Point for the 5S-FTE because it can be a one man project in a weekend.

:::SCORE:::
3S-GTE: 3
5S-FTE: 3

Now it all comes down to what you decide. As stated in earlier posts, you can get the same ammount of horsies from an intercooled 5S-FTE as you can from a stock 3S-GTE. Personal preference rules this question and that's all there is to it guys.

Snadman

This post has been edited by snadman: Mar 30, 2003 - 4:52 PM

[TurboCeli]

heres a building trick that will work and actually has a 6G celica running 9.5s Its basically an ls/vtec for toyotas. U get a 5s bottom end and bolt a 3s-gte head on it. makes huge power but i bet it would cost alot to do.

[Swifty]

Not to bash the whole 5sfe idea but the costs are pretty close (plus or minus 1000 right), and you would get a world class racing engine if you went with the 3sgte.
The engines are different past the point that one is a 2.2 L and the other a 2.0 L.
The 3s has internals that rival the Nissan Skyline R34's engine in strength and capacity for horsepower. Also if u go with the 3s and get the 225/255 Hp, and if thats not enough yet (it not enough... its NEVER ENOUGH heh heh heh...) you could always get a nice new boost controller and double the boost there by achieving the HP of the average Supra TT. While on the other hand your 5s would top out somwhere around 300 Hp and blow up a week or so after that. I love the Celica in all its forms but given the choice (by which I mean if I had the cash) I would trade in the 5s for the 3s. But whatever you decide It should be your choice, If you only want an engine with a little more go for every day driving spend a little on a small turbo or mabye get one of the 4A engines (like that exotic 20 valve), but when it come to substituting a turbo 5sfe for a 3sgte its just not worth it

HEY Toyota, How come the celica has such a wimmpy engine. Please give us 200+ for the 7th gen.

[presure2]

i dont know, guys,...i mean to put it simply, the 3sgte is MADE for boost.....the 5sFe is not.....now im not saying that it cant be done, we all know it can, and quite well, in some cases...but the 3s definetly the stronger of the 2 engines..now having said that, i need to start getting parts to boost my 5s..lol..

[snadman]

Where are you guys getting these huge horsepower numbers from stock 3S-GTE's? Yes, they are awesome engines, but 255HP? Where the hell does that come from with a stock 3S-GTE. I swear every week the stock 3S-GTE's horsepower raises by like 20 on here. The first generation 3S-GTE's created only 190whp, second gen only 200whp and the newest ones have a rated power of 260HP, that does not mean it's trtue and that does not mean it's what you get. You lose horsepower overtime on stock engines. I don't know, maybe you guys forgot that fact. You may think you're getting 255hp, in which case that clip is going to cost you more because it's a newer engine, but you're really not getting all of that power. I remember seeing a dynograph of a 6th gen GT that had a bunch of ignitiion upgrades, exhaust, and intake and it only had 105whp. Before you read information about these cars too, make sure whether it says at the crank or at the wheels...you lose a lot throughout the drivetrain. Please guys, don't post erratic figures to skew peoples' minds one way or another. Just present the story with both sides and give people just a more knowledgable approach tot heir decision....don't try and skew it so your post makes up their mind for them.

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

QUOTE (TurboCeli @ Mar 30, 2003 - 2:10 PM)

heres a building trick that will work and actually has a 6G celica running 9.5s Its basically an ls/vtec for toyotas. U get a 5s bottom end and bolt a 3s-gte head on it. makes huge power but i bet it would cost alot to do.

Would this do anything, or no? Increase displacement or something?? Im not very well-educated on engine internals and what-not.