GT-4 vs GT, extra HP in GT-4 Options

[popstar]

Mr E or anyone out there ?

when where the last GT-Fours issued mines a '96' (got it right this time ) did toyota keep up production in to '99' ?

[Mr_E]

1999 was the last of the ST205s I believe. Post 1998 was JDM only I think. Projector lights and stuff.

[Kwanza26]

@ kwanza - you ever driven a beams? the whole point of vvt is that the cam profile is aletered somehow to give better low end drive with top end performance. the vvt on the beams kicks in at 4500 +_ 200 rpm and you certainly can feel it. Hell under half normal acce;leration in the wet the thing will spin up when it hits 4500. under hard acceleration in the wet it wil spin up in 3rd when it hits the vvt (at about 75 mph)
[right][snapback]230993[/snapback][/right]

No... but I have much more experience than probably anyone else here. I've driven just about every single new Toyota, which ALL incorporate VVT-i. I build VTEC engines and I KNOW how VVT-i works. It doesn't turn on at a certain rpm. VVT-i is constantly on, hence the "i" for "intelligence". It alters cam timing for the optimal torque, like you say, but it doesn't add "kick" in the upper powerband. Kick is VTEC. Kick is VVTLi. Both VTEC and VVTLi have as much as 60-70 Horsepower jumps between primary lobes and Lift lobes. VVT-i only advances or retards cam timing depending on throttle position, load, rpms, etc. The increased pull you describe is NORMAL for a sporty engine. 16V 4AGEs do it without VVT-i... so it has NOTHING to do with VVT-i... ;]

[turboinduction]

@ kwanza - you ever driven a beams? the whole point of vvt is that the cam profile is aletered somehow to give better low end drive with top end performance. the vvt on the beams kicks in at 4500 +_ 200 rpm and you certainly can feel it. Hell under half normal acce;leration in the wet the thing will spin up when it hits 4500. under hard acceleration in the wet it wil spin up in 3rd when it hits the vvt (at about 75 mph)
[right][snapback]230993[/snapback][/right]

No... but I have much more experience than probably anyone else here. I've driven just about every single new Toyota, which ALL incorporate VVT-i. I build VTEC engines and I KNOW how VVT-i works. It doesn't turn on at a certain rpm. VVT-i is constantly on, hence the "i" for "intelligence". It alters cam timing for the optimal torque, like you say, but it doesn't add "kick" in the upper powerband. Kick is VTEC. Kick is VVTLi. Both VTEC and VVTLi have as much as 60-70 Horsepower jumps between primary lobes and Lift lobes. VVT-i only advances or retards cam timing depending on throttle position, load, rpms, etc. The increased pull you describe is NORMAL for a sporty engine. 16V 4AGEs do it without VVT-i... so it has NOTHING to do with VVT-i... ;]
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God I love Lift

-Ti

[Negative]

[/quote]
Take the pain? The thing that takes the pain is the road. That and the transmission. However, since the AWD tranny was meant for that, it wont break. I've never seen or heard of anyone in a AWD that broke their trannies because the wheels dont spin. I guess in my experience, I'd be more worried about burning the clutch out in a FWD trying to keep its tires on the road.

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[/quote]

I'm not trying to get in on the rest of this conversation just wanted to add my experience to this statement:

I personally witnessed a brand new WRX break his drive shaft and shut down the motor because he tried to launch at redline. The kid was stupid and his daddy had just bought the car for him that weekend - so there should be some accountablity for stupidity (I like the way that sounds - gonna have to remember that one the next time I'm writing lyrics for my band ).
Now then I do believe Toyota makes a better quality Product than Subaru but the above blanket statement about AWD's is too absolute. Anything can break.
Just my .02.

[Negative]

BTW - VVTi does kick around 4500RPM - even my '02 Camry does it - you can feel it. What you may be thinking of is the way better kick that you get from a VVTL-i and yes it is very nice. Still slower than my 6th gen though - proven not hype. Oh and for proof of experience I have owned 5 Celicas now including the Celica/Supra ('84), an '88 Al-trac and two 6th gen GT's. The '86 ST-185 Swap I had was by far the fastest so far with the exception of the Al-trac which was about dead even until you hit curves and then was the fastest.
But whatever.

[Kwanza26]

BTW - VVTi does kick around 4500RPM - even my '02 Camry does it - you can feel it. What you may be thinking of is the way better kick that you get from a VVTL-i and yes it is very nice. Still slower than my 6th gen though - proven not hype. Oh and for proof of experience I have owned 5 Celicas now including the Celica/Supra ('84), an '88 Al-trac and two 6th gen GT's. The '86 ST-185 Swap I had was by far the fastest so far with the exception of the Al-trac which was about dead even until you hit curves and then was the fastest.
But whatever.
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Umm... no. You gotta get you gotta get your facts straight. VVT-i is a constant mechanism, as in no "on-off" sort of deal. What you describe as a crossover point in the rpm band and VVT worked like that, NOT VVT-i. As far as I know... the ONLY Toyota engines to use the early VVT system were the 4AGE 20Vs. Neither system was designed to make power (VVT and VVT-i). They were designed to improve response and torque. What you guys are "feeling" as kicks, is normal in that rpm range, but I tend to think some of you simply want to compare VVT-i to VTEC... which are NOT the same. VVT-i is rarely felt because it's almost always on. VVT on the other hand can be slightly felt, but it's rather mundane...

Read this for more info...
http://www.billzilla.org/vvtvtec.htm

Oh... and if you wish to impress me with experience, do so with facts and your knowledge... not opinion. People can say whatever they want, but their experience shows only when they can spit out facts... ;]

This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Jan 7, 2005 - 8:14 PM

[turboinduction]

Take the pain? The thing that takes the pain is the road. That and the transmission. However, since the AWD tranny was meant for that, it wont break. I've never seen or heard of anyone in a AWD that broke their trannies because the wheels dont spin. I guess in my experience, I'd be more worried about burning the clutch out in a FWD trying to keep its tires on the road.

^^ I wrote that. And oh boy did people like to jump at it.

Ok, lets re-read it.

Did I say "I never saw anyone break an AWD under ANY situation" No. That WRX driver is a moron. I can also say that rotors dont have redlines, but I'm sure a moron with a rx7 can eventually break the no redline limit. I've owned AWD's. Launching a AWD at the proper max torque (NOT FRICKING REDLINE) and settin the car back without spinning the tires is normal. Nothing is gonna break. Its just as 'dangerous' as launching a FWD or RWD. Wheel spin doesn't release pressure. Spinning the tires releases pressure. So... If the tires are spinning out of control on the pavement making smoke or the tires are gripping and throwing the entire car forward like a bat outa hell - the effect is the same. You CANNOT break a AWD driftshaft because theres no 'wheelspin'. You CAN break it however, its not invincable. But before anyone else with no experience besides "my friends dad's got one" says anything, THINK.

Also, to add to Kwanza's battle in the last 2 pages. I said Kick - I did. What I meant was the feeling of power in the upper range. Kick comes from Lift. The reason you feel it 'kick' is because you are used to a sucky ass car. Sucky ass cars have power in the beginning through the mid RPM range and die. VVTi keeps the power going. So at 4500 when a normal car of the same attributes dies, your car is surprising and has oogles of power and oh boy its so fast. VVTi is great, but as stated creates no jump effect. What I meant by kick, again - since I may have caused this all, was the feeling of VVTi in the upper range since the lower range its less effective.

-Ti

[richgt4]

Well that took some time to read through. Happy New Year to you all by the way

I've got a ST205 & can confidently say that stock for stock, it would feel as though you'd be going backwards if you were to challenge one either on the road or track.

It's a road going rally car for god's sake

My one has only got a HKS filter fitted & last time it was put on the rolling road it pushed out 278bhp, boost as standard.

Ta,

Rich

[soundmangt4]

I personally witnessed a brand new WRX break his drive shaft and shut down the motor because he tried to launch at redline

Firstly the Subaru parts are not even in the same league as Toyota parts, and a good example is that a good friend of mine has a Scooby with full exhaust from the block back, and a full ecu remap to 1.3 bar, and he also has a hybrid turbo which he can't fit right now because the gearbox is only good up to 300bhp, and above that 3rd gear is apparantly likely to be sheared!! For more power he'd need to buy and fit an STi box.
However, my 1992 ST185 RC gearbox is good for over 500bhp no problem. How do I know this I hear you ask, well Fensport's legendary Corrola running over 600bhp now, runs a 3SGTE with ST205 running gear and an RC box. He is only now starting to lunch gearboxes and he is running sub 11 sec 1/4 miles times.
I personally ran a 13.7 at 100.8 mph running totally stock clutch, gearbox and diffs etc. Anyone who runs redline and side steps the clutch in the dry will firstly kill the clutch, and then before the gearbox breaks on a GT-Four, you will light up the wheels.
I do think a stock SSIII will give a stock 185 a run for it's money with a rolling start though, but an ST205 is a different kettle of fish. Also a small boost increase in a ST185 will mean the SSIII is a small dot in the rear view mirror.

Rob Hughes
Sunny England
JDM ST185 RC
SQM 13.7 @ 100.8 mph

[Insanity-74]

I`ve gotta agree with soundmangt4, the GT SSIII would not be able to give much of a challenge to a GT4, I`ve driven both, and own a GT4 st205 and was disapointed with the SSIII after driving it around for a couple of hours while I was shopping about for a new Celica, so brought the GT-4

As for launching a AWD/4WD car from redline, not good if you want your car to live long, I`ve seen a brand new Evo (less than 100 miles on the clock) destroy its gearbox doing this, actual pieces of it on the floor. I shouldnt imagine it would do too much good to a GT-4 either, I certainly wouldnt do it, no matter how tempting it is

[Mr_E]

I actually know very few instances of a ST205 having a transmission issue. They appear to be *very* strong.

I still wouldn't wind her up and sidestep the clutch every day......

[popstar]

1999 was the last of the ST205s I believe. Post 1998 was JDM only I think. Projector lights and stuff.
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Thank's Mr E

Any idea how available the '99' model's are ?
I checked the Jap' auction sites and haven't seen any, you have any idae of a 'ball park' price on one......

As i'm thinking to either replace mine with a newer model, or just spend 5k in tunning ???

And what does the JDM stand for ? i just imported a ST 205 but see posts stating JDM, USDM, Class A railly ?????

[richgt4]

1999 was the last of the ST205s I believe. Post 1998 was JDM only I think. Projector lights and stuff.
[right][snapback]231024[/snapback][/right]

Thank's Mr E

Any idea how available the '99' model's are ?
I checked the Jap' auction sites and haven't seen any, you have any idae of a 'ball park' price on one......

As i'm thinking to either replace mine with a newer model, or just spend 5k in tunning ???

And what does the JDM stand for ? i just imported a ST 205 but see posts stating JDM, USDM, Class A railly ?????
[right][snapback]231941[/snapback][/right]

That would mean Jamanesd Domestic Market (JDM/Imports) & USDomestic Market (USDM).

Rich

[popstar]

Thanks Rich

[Mr_E]

I don't know how many 98/99 spec cars there are. I'd guess at not many, as everyone bought subarus or Evos......

[popstar]

I don't know how many 98/99 spec cars there are. I'd guess at not many, as everyone bought subarus or Evos......
[right][snapback]232033[/snapback][/right]

thanks then...

i'll just have to keep looking, and see what i find........

saw an imported 97 GT-4 in moscow for $ 14,500 on the net yesterday, with only 70,000km on the clock...... might have to have a look

[_rz_]

@ kwanza - you ever driven a beams? the whole point of vvt is that the cam profile is aletered somehow to give better low end drive with top end performance. the vvt on the beams kicks in at 4500 +_ 200 rpm and you certainly can feel it. Hell under half normal acce;leration in the wet the thing will spin up when it hits 4500. under hard acceleration in the wet it wil spin up in 3rd when it hits the vvt (at about 75 mph)
[right][snapback]230993[/snapback][/right]

No... but I have much more experience than probably anyone else here. I've driven just about every single new Toyota, which ALL incorporate VVT-i. I build VTEC engines and I KNOW how VVT-i works. It doesn't turn on at a certain rpm. VVT-i is constantly on, hence the "i" for "intelligence". It alters cam timing for the optimal torque, like you say, but it doesn't add "kick" in the upper powerband. Kick is VTEC. Kick is VVTLi. Both VTEC and VVTLi have as much as 60-70 Horsepower jumps between primary lobes and Lift lobes. VVT-i only advances or retards cam timing depending on throttle position, load, rpms, etc. The increased pull you describe is NORMAL for a sporty engine. 16V 4AGEs do it without VVT-i... so it has NOTHING to do with VVT-i... ;]
[right][snapback]231037[/snapback][/right]

Yep, sorry for my mistake kwanza. When I was talking about kick I was describing my expirience driving a 7th gen GTS and it does have VVTLi so you are completly right.

[mmorg3053]

No disrespect to any non GT4 owners but to be honest the non turbo celicas get wasted. There is none of this getting off the line better or catching up at a higher speed or the GT4 is not pulling away anymore stuff . The GT4 (bear in mind im talking about a ST205) gets off the line better and WILL continue to pull away all the way to the top speed. I hope I dont offend anyone by what i have said but lets face it, the GT4 was built for acceleration, its a rally car!
But I do think it will be a lot closer in with a ST185 as they are very heavy and less powerful than a ST205

[Supersprynt]

Yeah this is true I dont kno why this is debated.

Except im non-gt4 and I could probably put up a good fight.

This post has been edited by Supersprynt: Jan 13, 2005 - 2:24 PM