99-mod Celica ST chassis vs GT/GT4 chassis Options

[Illyont]

Hello!

Overseas in cold Norway we have a bunch of stupid laws. One of them is:

You can never add more than 15% horsepower above stock for your model car. If you do, no more street legal.

Anyway, I was talking to them today and I got them to agree on this:

If I could get a written statement from Toyota that the chassis on a regular ST (AT200) would be able to hold x amounts of whp. They could register the car as a street vehicle. So I drove to Toyota and asked them. They didn't know....

If anyone should know, it have to be someone on this board. I know it's a pretty long shot, but I have to ask. If the chassie turn out to be totally different then OK, but if they are the same, or atleast if the ST chassie can withstand lets say. 300 whp from a tuned up 3S-GTE then wow, great.

I will probably get like 20 replies saying:

I have a 94-99 Celica ST with 3S-GTE swap and my car is doing just fine. That just doesn't cut it. I need to get the statement from Toyota, but before attacking them I need some cold hard facts first.

[nik]

http://www.poweredbytoyota.com/ssfeturbo.html

this is a link talking about the buriun turbo kit that can go into a 90-99 toyota celica
doesnt refrence the chasis but is for the 5sfe but the chasis pretty much the same to the at200

[Illyont]

http://www.poweredbytoyota.com/ssfeturbo.html

this is a link talking about the buriun turbo kit that can go into a 90-99 toyota celica
doesnt refrence the chasis but is for the 5sfe but the chasis pretty much the same to the at200
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Well, that kit is almost the same as your own custom kit, and put 190 crank hp into the car. So the chasis(spelling?) issue wouldn't have come up with this kit anyway. Because it's almost inside the 15% value (don't ask me why, but the guy said ok to 180 hp. 116+15% isn't 180 but what the heck, I don't complain).

The chasis issue comes on field when you go above that 15% value. Say 190, 200 or even more.

Thanks for the answer though.

[nik]

http://www.poweredbytoyota.com/ssfeturbo.html

this is a link talking about the buriun turbo kit that can go into a 90-99 toyota celica
doesnt refrence the chasis but is for the 5sfe but the chasis pretty much the same to the at200
[right][snapback]269994[/snapback][/right]

Well, that kit is almost the same as your own custom kit, and put 190 crank hp into the car. So the chasis(spelling?) issue wouldn't have come up with this kit anyway. Because it's almost inside the 15% value (don't ask me why, but the guy said ok to 180 hp. 116+15% isn't 180 but what the heck, I don't complain).

The chasis issue comes on field when you go above that 15% value. Say 190, 200 or even more.

Thanks for the answer though.
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also the gt4 chasis is way different than the gt and st chasis because of the 4 wheel drive configuration its stronger then are front wheel drive chasis.

[Blakout16]

how would they know if u put a turbo on it? just put the boost down to nearly nothing when they do the "hp" check.

[Illyont]

how would they know if u put a turbo on it? just put the boost down to nearly nothing when they do the "hp" check.
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That's just not the way it works. I need my car street legal, end of story. To do that I need to know (from Toyota, written) how many hp the chasis can withstand.

[Mr_E]

Well the FWD chassis had 200bhp 3S-GEs dropped in them in Japan.

One assumes, with suitable springs and brakes, that they're good for that and more.

[nik]

3S-GE - This engine is another engine that comes standard in many Celicas, including the sixth generation Celica ST202 and ST203(Which, sadly, aren't available in the US.) It's the same 2.0 liter block as the 3S-GTE, but rather than being turbocharged, this engine is naturally aspirated, resulting in less power and less torque. This engine is an option for people who have a Celica and want to do a swap, but they don't want or are not allowed to have a turbocharged car. Even without the turbocharger, this engine is still powerful though. It puts out 177 horsepower and 142 lbs. ft. of torque in the earlier models, and the later models have BEAMS VVT-i(Identified by red valve covers and intake manifolds), resulting in 197 horsepower and 152 lb. ft. of torque. "coomer wrote this engine swap section"

This post has been edited by nik: Apr 13, 2005 - 12:53 PM

[97sccelica]

dude,

i live in CALIFORNIA

to have my car street legal, i cant change ANY THING. no new parts unless the old on breaks.

if you want your car to be street legal, dont touch it, its as simple as that.

if you truely wanted more power, you wouldnt give a rat's ass about the local laws like me. every single mod on my car is technically illegal. namely the removal of the 3 catalytic converters.

there is no chance in hell that your government will know how much power you added to your car.

This post has been edited by 97sccelica: Apr 13, 2005 - 12:43 PM

[darksecret]

I've told people before the chassis is the same on all models unless there is added reinforcement on the chassis added after the initial construction. An example of added reinforcement would be like the Evo and the Lancer, they are the exact same chassis on the exception that after production the Evo chassis gets the seams welded together to add 50% more rigidity to the chassis. I don't believe that Toyota added the welds but we don't have GT-Fours in America so I can't check.

[Illyont]

I've told people before the chassis is the same on all models unless there is added reinforcement on the chassis added after the initial construction. An example of added reinforcement would be like the Evo and the Lancer, they are the exact same chassis on the exception that after production the Evo chassis gets the seams welded together to add 50% more rigidity to the chassis. I don't believe that Toyota added the welds but we don't have GT-Fours in America so I can't check.
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So I should be able to get what you say confirmed by Toyota? It's not like it's some kind of secret or anything I guess

How do you know this? And could you please try and check around if you find out for sure if the GT-4 have any reinforcements made to the chassis after initial construction. It would help a ton, really. I have contacted Toyota here in Norway, but they aren't answering my question. They just talk alot about everything else. That I would need new brakes etc. I'm going to continue pushing them for the facts though. And by the way. Thank you for a decent answer

[nik]

by the way i sold my turbo kit on ebay last night but i can help you find all the parts etc just pm me

[darksecret]

The only way to truely find out is to check the GT-Four forums or to call the original manufacturing plant if the chassis is indeed the same, I would say you could go off othe chassis code i.e. ST, but the AT series is the same chassis also. The chassis could be the exact same as the Gt-Four but you can't get past the numbers stamped into the metal, legally. I don't know anything about Norway but can you get a chassis shop to stregthen it for you and provide a authentication number, we can do something like that here, it's a sticker that sits above the inspection. I can't remeber the name of the plant all I know is it was originally maufactured in Japan and shipped else where for modification like the convertibles. I still think you might get hung up with the AT code. If anything E-Mail Toyota Japan with the question and keep hounding them until they give you an answer.

[darksecret]

One more thing don't let the gov't get you down, see I remember this company that built a drag car which happened to hold the title of the worlds fastest Celica for a while, the HKS Celica was based off the AT200 chassis, so they can't tell you that the chassis isn't able to take the beating since this was a 10 second car. I know that HKS modified it but it is still the AT200 chassis.

[Illyont]

The only way to truely find out is to check the GT-Four forums or to call the original manufacturing plant if the chassis is indeed the same, I would say you could go off othe chassis code i.e. ST, but the AT series is the same chassis also. The chassis could be the exact same as the Gt-Four but you can't get past the numbers stamped into the metal, legally. I don't know anything about Norway but can you get a chassis shop to stregthen it for you and provide a authentication number, we can do something like that here, it's a sticker that sits above the inspection. I can't remeber the name of the plant all I know is it was originally maufactured in Japan and shipped else where for modification like the convertibles. I still think you might get hung up with the AT code. If anything E-Mail Toyota Japan with the question and keep hounding them until they give you an answer.
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To get the car registered and street legal I need to find written proof that the chassis can withstand the pressure from the engine. What numbers and chassis code is stamped on the chassis doesn't matter. This can come from either A) Toyota or B) TUV in Germany. If either of those can give me written proof that my car can have 260 hp without breaking, I can have it on the street in Norway. Option A is prefered, because TUV bills you 4 000$ for ONE check. And if you need more, then you have to pay up another 4k$.

As already said I'm gonna continue hammering on Toyota to make them spill their guts sooner or later on this issue. It would really make a difference, since it would then be piece of cake for everyone that wants to do this after me (in Norway atleast).

I don't think we have a single GT-4 in here, and not many GTs either. We have some, but 97% of them are stock, and the last 3% are more or less illegal. We have alot of non-GTs though, about 10 (6th gen) only in my city (17 000 people) Suddently all of those can get a motor swap just like that.

[Illyont]

by the way i sold my turbo kit on ebay last night but i can help you find all the parts etc just pm me 
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Will do, but first I'm gonna see how this 3S-GTE swap issue is going. Not because I want that swap so much, or need that much hp, or need a turbo or whatever. But mostly because I want to see how far I can go (legally).

[darksecret]

Good luck, just badger Toyota with the same question and you'll get your answers. I personally believe the chassis is the same for all models as far as strength, except for the convertible, why would Toyota build a chassis strictly for FWD and one for AWD, they're not that stupid to waste money making two chassis'sfor the same body, no other manufacturer does it. If there are differences they will be very minor and not effect the strength unless the chassis is seam welded, and with the WRC edition GT-Four I could understand that but not a standard GT-Four.

[Illyont]

Got another answer from Toyota Norway today. But they still haven't really answered my question. They just talk around it. I'm guessing they have something to hide. (like maybe the chassis are all the same?)

Their last reply was something like this:

"..those that we know of that had used the 3S-GTE engine have started out with a scrapped GT-4 chassis and built the entire car up from that.."

"..if you are gonna rebuid a AT200 with the GT-4 engine, you will most likely pay twice the cost of just buying a GT-4 in the first place.."

They never answered if I could use the original AT200 chassis to build a GT-4 though.. And I have told them several times to NOT look at brakes, springs, dampers, exhaust, intake etc. but just care about if the chassis will hold or not. They obviusly don't want to answer that.

Time to contact Toyota USA or even Toyota Japan I guess. Anyone have their contact information?

[presure2]

guys, its a proven fact that the gt-4 is MUCH more reinforced than the normal gt/st along the lines of 4 times the body welds if i remember correctly. the 2 chassis are VERY diffrent when it comes to the floors of the two, the gt-4 having basicly a totally diffrent floor pan, and ALOT more welding.
trying to get toyota to tell you any diffrent is gonna be a REAL P.I.T.A imo.

[darksecret]

guys, its a proven fact that the gt-4 is MUCH more reinforced than the normal gt/st along the lines of 4 times the body welds if i remember correctly. the 2 chassis are VERY diffrent when it comes to the floors of the two, the gt-4 having basicly a totally diffrent floor pan, and ALOT more welding.
trying to get toyota to tell you any diffrent is gonna be a REAL P.I.T.A imo.
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It might be that way due to rally car heritage, something like the Evo compared to the Lancer, they weld the seams to reinforce the chassis. I think the trunk pan is the only difference, if the entire floor pan was different there wouldn't be a need for the driveshaft tunnel on the 2 wheel versions. It cost too much to create two different chassis's so I feel that Toyota used the same chassis and made minor changes at the assembly line, same as the Evo. Even the old Mitsubishi Mirage and Dodge Colt were built on the same chassis as the Evo IV or V, I believe. Try calling 1-800-Go Toyota and they might be able to help with factory contacts. Since the only way to find out is seeing if they used a reference number from the factory to tell the difference in the chassis before assembly. I've stripped the underside of my car and found that there isn't much need for reinforcement there, but you might need to replace the rear floorpan and add the rear strut bar to help since the GT-Four did come with that reinforcement. The floor pan didn't make a difference in rigidity it just made enough room for the gas tank and rear axle.