4AGE 20v Options

[turboinduction]

Hey everybody!

I need some help. I'm looking for aftermarket potential on the 20v silvertop. Something other than "Blitz turbo" and "why not blacktop." Because I cant afford the Blitz turbo and the blacktop is weak IMO after doing research. I need something like internals, manifolds, etc. Any help is appriciated.

-Ti

[Coomer]

There's a huge aftermarket for all 4A-GE motors, but most stuff made specifically for the 20V ones can't be found cheaply in the US(Well, not cheap at all, but even more expensive in the US.)

For pistons, you can use 4A-GZE pistons, but unless you have them cut for the indent for the extra valve, it turns the motor into an interference motor, where if the timing belt breaks your pistons will hit your valves and do severe damage.

The silvertop's block, crank, and rods are equivalent in strength to the AE101 4A-GZE's block, crank, and rods. Some people say that the rods are exactly the same, but everyone always argues that they're not the same, but very close and equal in strength.

For exhaust manifolds, anything that fits a 16v 4A-GE will fit a 20v with modification so that the outer bolt holes match up. Nik is working on fitting a Honda B-series turbo manifold to a 16v 4A-GE flange...that might be a good option for a turbo setup. You will most likely have to go custom on the exhaust manifold.

The motor is really good for boost...the stock head gasket and such is fine for mild boost. In stock form at 5-6 PSI with exhaust, I've seen numbers from 185 whp to 215 whp. The key is tuning. It's very important with any turbo setup, but more so with a motor running 10.5:1 compression.

For more boost and more reliability, 4A-GZE pistons are a good upgrade. They bolt in and lower compression to 8.0:1 or 8.9:1, depending on which pistons you get.

Also, when running more than a few pounds of boost, a new intake manifold plenum is required, as the stock unit will leak or be destroyed by lots of boost.

You'll most likely want to go with a standalone EMS if you're going turbo. Many people go with Megasquirt(and a Ford EDIS-4 ignition setup) for a low-cost solution. The AFM sucks for boost, and you need to be able to precision tune everything(and you'll want to get the car dyno-tuned professionally) if you want a reliable setup.

But yeah, the silvertop is a great motor and is excellent for boost. I considered boosting mine, but I've decided to invest in a new camera and stuff instead.

If you've got more specific questions, post 'em up if they haven't been answered through searching.

[Coomer]

By the way, if you do put in the 4A-GZE pistons, you might as well upgrade to a metal headgasket while you're at it.

And here are some turbo manifolds built for various 4A-GE engines...it'll give you some ideas as to what your options are.

[FallenHero]

Were you looking to go NA?

If so, find a nice header, have the head worked, find some blacktop ITB's (they are slightly larger) and run them open with a megasquirt.

If it's not for a daily driver, raising the compression to 11:1 wouldn't hurt. I also wouldn't be surprised if the black top had more agressive cams.

[Coomer]

Were you looking to go NA?

If so, find a nice header, have the head worked, find some blacktop ITB's (they are slightly larger) and run them open with a megasquirt.

If it's not for a daily driver, raising the compression to 11:1 wouldn't hurt.   I also wouldn't be surprised if the black top had more agressive cams.
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Cams are the same between the two from what I've read. The internal differences lie in the lighter internals, and there are also different shaped intake ports on the head that flow better.

[turboinduction]

Thanks for all the help guys. I'd like to run about 180-200whp. If I can do that N/A I will. This is a project of mine, and I dont have thousands to spend on an engine. It's more or less also going to be a city daily driver. Not actually driven daily, but its not just going to see the tracks. Also, do you (fallenhero) really think its okay to run the ITB's open without filter? And onto that subject (chris), where would I find a new intake plenum if wanted? I really dont want to go custom tooooo much. Any more ideas are much welcome!

-Ti

[FallenHero]

Thanks for all the help guys.  I'd like to run about 180-200whp.  If I can do that N/A I will.  This is a project of mine, and I dont have thousands to spend on an engine.  It's more or less also going to be a city daily driver.  Not actually driven daily, but its not just going to see the tracks.  Also, do you (fallenhero) really think its okay to run the ITB's open without filter?  And onto that subject (chris), where would I find a new intake plenum if wanted?  I really dont want to go custom tooooo much.  Any more ideas are much welcome!

-Ti
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well, to me, open is a relative term.

By "Open" I would build some type of filtration system that had zero restriction.

And coom's right, I had forgotten about the minor head differences (silver to black) Also, if I'm not mistaken, the blacktop has a more domed head design. But hey, if you are thinking about milling the silvertop head for compression,,, how much of a dome can you have?

I myself am in the process of locating a 20v head. I have all but decided to use one of them on the 7ag (which has been in the planning stage for more than a year now)

I think I have pistons and rods, but I cannot get confirmation if they will fit.

Oh, and I am not going purely NA. I plan to run 10:1 - 9.5:1 compression. That will give streetable performance while allowing me turbocharged possibilities.

[Coomer]

You can't easily get 180-200 whp N/A out of a 4A-GE without spending thousands. With your budget, you're better off boosting, but I suggest you swap the motor into the car and then decide if you want more. The motor is pretty quick in my car, and in a lighter RWD platform, it'd be even faster.

[turboinduction]

You can't easily get 180-200 whp N/A out of a 4A-GE without spending thousands. With your budget, you're better off boosting, but I suggest you swap the motor into the car and then decide if you want more. The motor is pretty quick in my car, and in a lighter RWD platform, it'd be even faster.
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yes chris, first things first - lol

I'll keep you posted

-Ti

[FallenHero]

Youre working on a AW11? I yern for such a project. Best of luck to you.

[turboinduction]

Youre working on a AW11?  I yern for such a project.   Best of luck to you.
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ah, yes I am. You guys know me. I couldn't stay away from Toyota THAT long. Hell, its been almost 2 weeks without my T in the driveway. Sheesh.

Just bought 2 1987 mr2's. One auto (roommate bought it) and other manual. But the rods and heads are shot in the manual. So, its time for something new via the 20v silvertop. Now heres the kicker. We got both cars for .... 613 dollars!!! Weee. I love ebay.

And for any AW11 16v/20v people... I found a guy who makes VERY VERY nice turbo manifolds for our upsidedown platform, along with downpipes and heat shields.

Check out his website

-Ti

This post has been edited by turboinduction: Apr 26, 2005 - 8:24 PM

[FallenHero]

nice.

Build yourself a smallport 16valve and boost it. It will save you headaches... and will be much easier to work with.

[turboinduction]

nice.

Build yourself a smallport 16valve and boost it.  It will save you headaches... and will be much easier to work with.
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it would cost me the same to buy pistons and rods (if i can find them) as it would just to purchase a 20v. And right off the bat i've got a 50hp increase, plus uniqueness as I've never done a swap. Something to learn.

-Ti

[turboinduction]

what would you do for intake on a 20v boosted?

-Ti

[Kwanza26]

what would you do for intake on a 20v boosted?

-Ti
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You need to build a custom intake plenum... basically a little box to cover the throttle bodies. The stock one is pretty flimsy. The intake plenum is the box that covers the throttles and has "4 throttle" written on it... just in case you're not sure... ;]

IMO, the 20V is a better boost engine because everything about the head design is geared towards induction. With 3 intake valves, it has more overall valve surface than a 16V and it has ITBs... the ultimate in EFI intake systems.

[maikl]

http://www.todaracing.com.au/toda_home.html they have almost everything for the 20v engines!!!! go for n/a!

[turboinduction]

what would you do for intake on a 20v boosted?

-Ti
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You need to build a custom intake plenum... basically a little box to cover the throttle bodies. The stock one is pretty flimsy. The intake plenum is the box that covers the throttles and has "4 throttle" written on it... just in case you're not sure... ;]

IMO, the 20V is a better boost engine because everything about the head design is geared towards induction. With 3 intake valves, it has more overall valve surface than a 16V and it has ITBs... the ultimate in EFI intake systems.
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Intake plenum? ITB's? 4 throttle? What ever do you mean?



I figured I'd go custom, but I was hoping for the "oh ti, geez... heres a link to buy a new stronger one for 20 bucks!" Gotta try. Also, with your 4AGE knowledge... what do you think max boost on stock internals. I'd figure on a silvertop, I'd be safe at 6/7. But I'm curious if 8-10 has worked for people. Any input is much appriciated.

-Ti

[turboinduction]

http://www.todaracing.com.au/toda_home.html they have almost everything for the 20v engines!!!! go for n/a!
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todaracing.com (usa site) has nothing for 20v that I can see. todaracing.com.au doesnt seem to have a Toyota section up yet? Any help?

-Ti

[Kwanza26]

Intake plenum? ITB's? 4 throttle?  What ever do you mean?



I figured I'd go custom, but I was hoping for the "oh ti, geez... heres a link to buy a new stronger one for 20 bucks!"  Gotta try.  Also, with your 4AGE knowledge... what do you think max boost on stock internals.  I'd figure on a silvertop, I'd be safe at 6/7.  But I'm curious if 8-10 has worked for people.  Any input is much appriciated.

-Ti
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=P

Silvertop has nearly identical bottom-end parts to the 4AGZE. The rods are slightly reworked and lightened on the silvertop, and it has 20V pistons... but most all else is the same. With 4AGZ pistons, I can see safe boosting at around 12-15 psi. With stock 20V pistons, I wouldn't try more than 8...

Also... Todaracing.com does list 20V stuff. I think they call it AE101/111 5 valve or something like. They have pistons, cams, cam gears, etc.

[turboinduction]

=P

Silvertop has nearly identical bottom-end parts to the 4AGZE.  The rods are slightly reworked and lightened on the silvertop, and it has 20V pistons... but most all else is the same.  With 4AGZ pistons, I can see safe boosting at around 12-15 psi.  With stock 20V pistons, I wouldn't try more than 8...

Also... Todaracing.com does list 20V stuff.  I think they call it AE101/111 5 valve or something like.  They have pistons, cams, cam gears, etc.
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Oh boy I'm blind. I have to scroll! WHAT. I found the 20v stuff on toda.

Now more questions!
With the swap of the GZE pistons into the 20v, what do I do about the 5 valve head on 4 valve pistons? I'm curious on whether toda will custom make lower compression pistons for the 20v. They obviously boosted the AE101 upto 11.8, so I think they should go down too. I WOULD LOVE 15 PSI ON A 20V. That last statement even deserved the Natalie caps lock tradition.

-Ti

This post has been edited by turboinduction: Apr 28, 2005 - 3:48 PM