Why Doesn't Any Company Make A Header For The 5SFE Options

[darksecret]

You talk like the 5SFE is a diesel, it's stroke is smaller but it is still a good motor, like I said the IR is almost always overlooked in engine building and can make a difference if it was chaged, but that would be changing the way the motor sits under the hood, either way torque is a good thing and even though Honda's are everything horsepower, a car can have a lot of horsepower and make very little torque and yes it still runs good but you have to ride at 7,000 rpm to get anywhere, without torque horsepower is useless, i'm not going to get into a horsepower vs. torque, every car mag on the planet has explained it, neither are better than one another but if you want a quick street cruiser increse the torque, if you want a race car that can run high rpms all day go for horsepower. I do agree with Kwanza on the get an MR2 thing, basic bolt ons won't help because the head is to restrictive to make good use of them, that explains that dabble I went into earlier about cams and stuff.

[Kwanza26]

You talk like the 5SFE is a diesel, it's stroke is smaller but it is still a good motor, like I said the IR is almost always overlooked in engine building and can make a difference if it was chaged, but that would be changing the way the motor sits under the hood, either way torque is a good thing and even though Honda's are everything horsepower, a car can have a lot of horsepower and make very little torque and yes it still runs good but you have to ride at 7,000 rpm to get anywhere, without torque horsepower is useless, i'm not going to get into a horsepower vs. torque, every car mag on the planet has explained it, neither are better than one another but if you want a quick street cruiser increse the torque, if you want a race car that can run high rpms all day go for horsepower. I do agree with Kwanza on the get an MR2 thing, basic bolt ons won't help because the head is to restrictive to make good use of them, that explains that dabble I went into earlier about cams and stuff.
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Again... if that's all you're getting from me trying to explain in layman's terms... you're out of luck. Horsepower and torque are the same thing BTW... only expressed in different ways. Funny that you're trying to argue about horsepower and torque and can't even get that. You can talk about torque all you want... but NO ONE races at 4000 rpms... unless of course that is the redline.

Like I said before... go drive your car, shift it at 4500 rpms (torque peak)... then shift it at 5200-5800 rpms (power peak). It's EASY to tell which accelerates the car harder.

[darksecret]

Not all cars are Hondas, the Celica tops out way before it's redline (I shift at 5,000 rpm) with ok numbers, having a lower rpm means less stress on the engine which in turn makes a better street car, an S2000 in not a street car it's a motorcycle with 4 wheels. Do you want me to explain the definition of ft.lbs., lbs. ft. and horsepower because if you think they are the same your wrong. You're thinking ft. lbs. (as in 1 hp=550ft. lbs.) which translates crankshaft force into horsepower, i'm talking lbs. ft. if we use the way you describe it my motor is making about 88,000ft. lbs. at the crank, nobody goes under the peak horsepower because when you shift you drop below the peak torque range, but if there is only a thousand rpm difference between peak horsepower and peak torque you'll want to shift at peak horsepower so that you'll be at peak torque in the next gear, lbs. ft. is the driving force making the car go faster horsepower is what helps maintain that speed and increase speed when te car is already in motion if a motor is designed to work in a 4,000 rpm range it can put the equivalent amount of power out as a car made for a 8,000 rpm range yet it only needs to reach 4,000 rpm to meet that. Large engines typically have a lower rpm range put are still capable of running high power numbers but the higher the power and lower the rpm and displacement the more engineering is involved, in the case of the S2000 there is a lot of engineering involvede yet they couldn't reach that horsepower number without increasing the rpm and a major flaw with Hondas is to reach higher horsepower numbers they must sacrifice torque, high horsepower and low torque help when you have a small light vehicle like a motorcycle, but when you are dealing with 2800lbs. cars it shows that a car with lower horsepower can overcome one with higher horsepower through means of having higher torque, the reason why Honda can have numbers like those and not have to drive at such a high rpm is through VTEC which in a way stretches the powerband out and allows the engine to take advantage of horsepower over a larger area basically flattening the horsepower curve in a sense. If you put a car that has 300hp 500lbs. ft. against a 500hp 300lbs. ft. car most likely the 500hp car will win, now if you take a 160hp 180lbs.ft. car and put it against a 180hp 120lbs.ft car then the 160hp car will most likely win (ex.gearing in that) I could go into the gearing of the Celica also but that is a whole other can of worms.

BTW if that is what you meant by horsepower being the same thing as torque you were close but they are different, if they were the same Freightliners would haul some major a**. You can't have a very high horsepower car without sacrificing torque and you can't have a very high torque vehicle without sacrificing horsepower (you can balance them also but you wont have either extreme without increasing displacement or a power adder), if you want a street beast that you can take out for more than just a weekend go for torque, if you want a track star that you can run at 8,000 rpm the entire time go for horsepower, it's more preference.

This post has been edited by darksecret: Jun 14, 2005 - 10:05 AM

[LewFX]

anyone know if this is any good for the gt?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...7980867020&rd=1

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

anyone know if this is any good for the gt?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...7980867020&rd=1
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That's for the 1.8. The 1.8 is the ST. Best bet is to by an mr2 header and modify it to fit, seriously. GT's are the 2.2.

Just to let you know, if you want a fun car to drive, with decent horsepower, go with a GT. These guys are arguing about something relivent, but pretty much usless. Neither engine is ever going to make great horse power, even with a turbo. The GT will make more horsepower with little mods. If you put a header, exhaust, and intake on it, it will be decent. Don't expect to outrun very many people though.

This post has been edited by Bigmeanbulldog55: Jun 14, 2005 - 1:29 PM

[LewFX]

I have a GT and its fun, and i do outrun allot of people! I just outrun certain cars and know which ones i can beat and which ones i cant.

[darksecret]

The main reason nobody cares to modify the 5SFE is because it's an economy engine, i've seen Snodgrass's 5S but he really doesn't have a lot done, see the biggest failure is the head and i'm at the point now where i'll sink the money to get a head flow test to show a stock GT head has crappy flow. When it comes to upgrading most people neglect flow and wonder why their intake doesn't give the 5 whp it claims on the box, well it's because it is bringing in more cfm's than the head and cam will allow, increasing the duration of the cam will increase the amount of time the valve is open, but that will not matter if the flow of the head restrict the cfm's the intake passage is capable of. So in to put it simply if your head and intake passage produces 125cfm but your cam duration only allows for 75cfm then you need to up the cam duration or lift, and if your cam is profiled to bring in let's say 85cfm but your intake passage is only capable of 60cfm then you'll pull 60cfm no matter how big of a cam you put in it. I can get more technical about this but i'm no head expert and it requires a little research to back my statement but this is head flow in a nutshell.

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

I think the point was totally missed in this thread. Let me try to answer your question about the header...

I understand that you already owned an MR2 N/A with exhaust, header, and an intake and liked the boost in power. Currently for the 6th generation Celica GT with the 5SFE, there is no header readily available for sale in the US. However Genie (AUS) an almost direct fit for the Celica, and Hotshot makes a header that fits the 5SFE but doesnt bolt right on to the 6th gen. platform.

You're choices for the 6th Generation GT are to either try to get a Genie header overseas from Australia, or locate either a 3SFE Pacesetter header and make it fit, or do the same with a 5th gen header from Hotshot or an MR2 header made to fit, or even a 3SGE header. Most of these choices will require some modifications to make it fit right but would yield the results you're looking for.

[darksecret]

^^^^^^^^^^
We already told him that the arguement came after.

[Kwanza26]

Not all cars are Hondas, the Celica tops out way before it's redline (I shift at 5,000 rpm) with ok numbers, having a lower rpm means less stress on the engine which in turn makes a better street car, an S2000 in not a street car it's a motorcycle with 4 wheels. Do you want me to explain the definition of ft.lbs., lbs. ft. and horsepower because if you think they are the same your wrong. You're thinking ft. lbs. (as in 1 hp=550ft. lbs.) which translates crankshaft force into horsepower, i'm talking lbs. ft. if we use the way you describe it my motor is making about 88,000ft. lbs. at the crank, nobody goes under the peak horsepower because when you shift you drop below the peak torque range, but if there is only a thousand rpm difference between peak horsepower and peak torque you'll want to shift at peak horsepower so that you'll be at peak torque in the next gear, lbs. ft. is the driving force making the car go faster horsepower is what helps maintain that speed and increase speed when te car is already in motion if a motor is designed to work in a 4,000 rpm range it can put the equivalent amount of power out as a car made for a 8,000 rpm range yet it only needs to reach 4,000 rpm to meet that. Large engines typically have a lower rpm range put are still capable of running high power numbers but the higher the power and lower the rpm and displacement the more engineering is involved, in the case of the S2000 there is a lot of engineering involvede yet they couldn't reach that horsepower number without increasing the rpm and a major flaw with Hondas is to reach higher horsepower numbers they must sacrifice torque, high horsepower and low torque help when you have a small light vehicle like a motorcycle, but when you are dealing with 2800lbs. cars it shows that a car with lower horsepower can overcome one with higher horsepower through means of having higher torque, the reason why Honda can have numbers like those and not have to drive at such a high rpm is through VTEC which in a way stretches the powerband out and allows the engine to take advantage of horsepower over a larger area basically flattening the horsepower curve in a sense. If you put a car that has 300hp 500lbs. ft. against a 500hp 300lbs. ft. car most likely the 500hp car will win, now if you take a 160hp 180lbs.ft. car and put it against a 180hp 120lbs.ft car then the 160hp car will most likely win (ex.gearing in that) I could go into the gearing of the Celica also but that is a whole other can of worms.

BTW if that is what you meant by horsepower being the same thing as torque you were close but they are different, if they were the same Freightliners would haul some major a**. You can't have a very high horsepower car without sacrificing torque and you can't have a very high torque vehicle without sacrificing horsepower (you can balance them also but you wont have either extreme without increasing displacement or a power adder), if you want a street beast that you can take out for more than just a weekend go for torque, if you want a track star that you can run at 8,000 rpm the entire time go for horsepower, it's more preference.
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I'm on vacation right now, and really not sharp enough to argue or whatever... but horsepower is a non-exsistant measurement of an engine's ability to work. It's measurement is purely based on torque, the equation itself is based only on torqure and rpms. You can cry all you want, but really... if you have less than 200 ft lbs of torque, your engine isn't a torque monster nor does it have enough torque to fully utilize it in an acceleration contest. Here's some good readin for ya.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question381.htm
Here's some proof...
1st Gen Camry Solara V6 5 speed: ~2900-3000 pounds, 200 hp 225 ftlbs of torque, 1/4 mile mid 15's
DC5 RSX-S: 2600-2800 pounds, 200hp, 142 ft lbs of torque, 1/4 mile low 15's
02 LS1 Corvette 6 speed: 3200 pounds, 345hp, 345 ft lbs of torque, 1/4 mile low 13's...
02 NSX: 3200 pounds, 290hp, 225 ft lbs of torque, 1/4 mile low 13's...
01 Celica GTS 6 speed: 2500 pounds, 180hp, 128ftlbs of torque, 1/4 mile mid-low 15's...
02 Sentra SE-R Spec V: 2600 pounds, 180hp, 180 ftlbs of torque, 1/4 mile mid-low 15's...
Nothing against torque bro... but seriously... when talking n/a 4 bangers, torque makes for a good solid driver. Horsepower makes a performance car. Engine size may change that a bit, because bigger motors can make broader torque bands, but when speaking about n/a 4 cylinder motors and performance, torque doesn't make as much difference as horsepower. Don't assume I don't like torque either... or I underestimate torque. Unlike you, I don't stand biased for dumb reasons like "not liking Hondas"... I drive a Ford F250 superduty towing around our shop's various racecars (2 Hondas, 1 Toyota). I mean... with a hypertech chip, and a turbo charged diesel, 600+ ftlbs or torque off idle is a beautiful thing...

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

^^^^^^^^^^
We already told him that the arguement came after.
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Sorry, I just tried to clarify his choices a little instead of being caught in the middle of a debate. Hopefully somebody will take something from it and the topic will be easier to find answers to for all the GT owners who regularly ask this same question.

[darksecret]

No prob man I understand, as for Kwanza I understand horsepower is a good thing, believe me, I wasn't saying it's useless or that torque is better, but I did want to say that if you want a highway monster, something for the street/strip increasing the torque would be more important due to the lower rpm gains, now horsepower on the other is great for drifting, drag, or high speed track simply because you can utilize it more often than on the road. The horsepower thing is also why I don't care for Hondas, you've debated with me before and you can tell i'm not stupid when it comes to cars, i'm not a typical hater who says Hondas suck because they get riced, my main reason is because I feel they are overrated, some are quick but like the S2000 it's a track car that is portrayed as a daily driver, it's got a high amount of road noise and a very high peak horsepower rating, the Si in stock form or with mild mods isn't very fast but a lot of Honda guys will defend it until they die, I have legit reasons for not caring for them (also the fact that i'm more into rare cars which the Celica is one of the least common imports). I do like the RSX-S, my Celi (for a 5SFE) is quick but I still can't beat a stock one, i'll give a good run until about 40-50 mph but then they come into their powerband and I lose.

I kind of like debating this with you, i've been a member since March and a viewer since November and I think between us we can write a book on most the details of a car. Well i'm letting the horsepower vs. torque thing go like I said before it has been an ongoing debate for decades and it will go on until it's not a unit of measurement anymore. I didn't mean to offend anyone about the Honda kids thing, I should have added that most of the fast Hondas around here are owned by 17-19 year olds whose parents helped them build them up, which I feel if you're going to talk trash and say you got a 328whp RSX you should have put more than a waiting period at the garage into it, you'll appreciate it much more (it isn't just Honda owners like that either, we got 4 Evos like that also).

BTW I lived on HSW for about a year and even read the book, that's how I know a lot more than the average person, it's a really helpful site for a noob. I would recommend taking notes though, there is a lot of info.

This post has been edited by darksecret: Jun 16, 2005 - 10:23 PM