3s head on 5s Options

[Boss-Celica]

I've got the money to do it, I am just not ready to do it. My 5s only has like 87k on it and I wanna mess with it some more. I'm trying to see how much power I can get out of NA.

[95silvergt]

ok so if i get a 3s head i need to get the rods and have my crank cut and make sure the my 95 5sfe will bolt up to a 3s head and put cams in it and ill will be looking at around 200 hp. how hard is this to do

[presure2]

one thing you guys havent mentioned is how your gonna wire this up and get it to run...it wont run on the 5s ECU, i can tell you that.

[Boss-Celica]

one thing you guys havent mentioned is how your gonna wire this up and get it to run...it wont run on the 5s ECU, i can tell you that.

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That obviusly is true. If a 5s and probably a 3s ECU won't work then what probably would? I am sure some MR2 people have done it and probably found a way to fix that.

[Kwanza26]

Understand that a 5SGTE swap would be no different than a 3SGTE swap. You will have to use the 3SGTE wiring, ecu, and electronics. Also, I will add... the MR2 guys who made 600 some odd horsepower do not do it solely because they have a 5SGTE. Understand that the head only changes the horsepower characteristic... but the power maker is the turbo. If you build up the 5S bottom-end... even the FE head can make that power with boost. Take for example Paradise Racing's drag AE86. 8 second 1/4 mile car with a stock FE head and built bottom-end. A typical 5SGTE build will probably yeild less power but more torque than a regular 3SGTE mostly because of the displacement... the only major difference the head will provide would be the power delivery. The 3SGTE will always have a better top-end because of the 5S block's geometry.

Also know... that sort of power doesn't make a car very streetable or reliable.

[Punch]

so you're telling everyone more displacement more HP???

This post has been edited by Punch: Aug 23, 2005 - 11:35 PM

[Kwanza26]

so you a telling  everyone more displacement more HP???
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More displacement = more potential for power... definately more torque... but not neccesarily more horsepower.

[jgreening]

A typical 5SGTE build will probably yeild less power....  The 3SGTE will always have a better top-end because of the 5S block's geometry.
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Can you explain these two sentences in greater detail please? What are the geometric differences you speak of and why do those differences result in less horsepower for a higher displacement engine?

[Boss-Celica]

Theres no replacement for displacement . Hes basically saying that a 5sgte will yeild less power than a 3sgte because the 5sgte is still really a 5sfe which was built for economy.

[Kwanza26]

A typical 5SGTE build will probably yeild less power....  The 3SGTE will always have a better top-end because of the 5S block's geometry.
[right][snapback]325519[/snapback][/right]

Can you explain these two sentences in greater detail please? What are the geometric differences you speak of and why do those differences result in less horsepower for a higher displacement engine?
[right][snapback]325620[/snapback][/right]

Rod-stroke ratio. per psi of boost... a 5SGTE will make much more torque than a 3SGTE (because of the displacement), but because of it's poor piston dwell (relatively short rods in comparison to its stroke)... it won't make as much top-end power. It's the same reason why you don't see many n/a 5SGE's. The GE head can help change where horsepower peaks in the rpm band... but the engine's design is against top-end power.

If you compare the 5S rods and the 3S rods... they are almost identical in length. Considering the 5S has .2 liters more displacement... this means the 5S bottom-end is not designed with horsepower in mind. Even with a GE head... this characteristic isn't gonna change too much.

Comparatively speaking... take the 7AFE and the 2ZZGE. Both have nearly identical specs in terms of bore/stroke (82mm bore 85mm stroke for the 2ZZ and 81mm bore 85.5mm stroke for the 7A)... but the 2ZZ is a horsepower engine and is designed with rods, again, nearly identical in length to the 7A even though it lacks the stroke the 7A has. Compared to its (2ZZ) stroke, it has enough rod length to maintain good piston dwell and a stroke ratio to maintain top-end torque/power. As for the 7A... it's a very good design and has good performance potential... hence is why you see more n/a 7AGE's than n/a 5SGE's. Even turbocharged... these characteristics stay with the engine. In the 5S's case... n/a 5SGE isn't gonna be worth while. a turbo 5SGE (5SGTE) is the equalizer, since the turbo takes greater advantage of the displacement.

Am I starting to make sense yet? I'm not saying a 5SGTE is a bad build... it's an excellent build for say... a drag engine... but strictly speaking horsepower... a 3SGTE can match it. Hell... when people start talking about how such and such made 600 horses with a 5SGTE... I'll answer... you can make that much with a 5SFTE if you match the 5SGTE mod for mod. It's all about $$$ when it comes to boost...

[Punch]

$$$ talks
the big displacement will give more torque + HP...
Let's do it & go to the Dyno....

[jgreening]

Thanks for the post Kwanza but it sure is couunter intuitive. I find it difficult to believe that more displacement with the same head will yield less overall horsepower. I am going to do some more reading on rod / stroke ratio and piston dwell. Thanks again.

[presure2]

ahhh i LOVE this stuff. EXCELLENT post, kwanza.
now, can you explain a little about what the diffrence is between a 5s based stroker (3s 2.2l) and a 3s based stroker is, ive seen a bunch of diffrent stuff posted on the mr2 boards (mostly chrisk's posts) about how he builds 2.1 and 2.2l strokers based on the customers goals ect..can you break some of that down for us?

[Punch]

this is a massage I got from jim :


3S oil and water pump will fit 5S block. You must use 5S oil cooler and coolant hard lines. 3S rods will fit 5S crank if you get the journals grinded, or use the weaker 5S rods with no modifications You cannot use 3S or 5S pistons, you have to use custom CP or Wiseco pistons available from chrisk on the board.


Well, if you’re using the 5SFE block you need the 5SFE pistons unless you get an overbored set of 3SGTE ones, which would pretty much make them 5SFE pistons. You’ll have to get the crank modified if you use 3SGTE rods as well. That combo should have no problem hitting 300 hp.

A month? Wishful thinking. It took three months to get all machine work done and have all parts in, engine assembled and car fired up. Both rods will fit, upgraded 5S rods are $$$$, 3S rods are cheaper but you'll still spend a bit to grind down the journals on the crank. CP makes stroker pistons that are the size of 5S pistons but with valve reliefs for the 3S head. Depending on the 5S block you may need to have water channels drilled. Etc etc. A good time to consider upgrading the head.



this is jim's web site http://redblues.com/index3.html

[Jdog1385]

A typical 5SGTE build will probably yeild less power....   The 3SGTE will always have a better top-end because of the 5S block's geometry.
[right][snapback]325519[/snapback][/right]

Can you explain these two sentences in greater detail please? What are the geometric differences you speak of and why do those differences result in less horsepower for a higher displacement engine?
[right][snapback]325620[/snapback][/right]

Rod-stroke ratio. per psi of boost... a 5SGTE will make much more torque than a 3SGTE (because of the displacement), but because of it's poor piston dwell (relatively short rods in comparison to its stroke)... it won't make as much top-end power. It's the same reason why you don't see many n/a 5SGE's. The GE head can help change where horsepower peaks in the rpm band... but the engine's design is against top-end power.

If you compare the 5S rods and the 3S rods... they are almost identical in length. Considering the 5S has .2 liters more displacement... this means the 5S bottom-end is not designed with horsepower in mind. Even with a GE head... this characteristic isn't gonna change too much.

Comparatively speaking... take the 7AFE and the 2ZZGE. Both have nearly identical specs in terms of bore/stroke (82mm bore 85mm stroke for the 2ZZ and 81mm bore 85.5mm stroke for the 7A)... but the 2ZZ is a horsepower engine and is designed with rods, again, nearly identical in length to the 7A even though it lacks the stroke the 7A has. Compared to its (2ZZ) stroke, it has enough rod length to maintain good piston dwell and a stroke ratio to maintain top-end torque/power. As for the 7A... it's a very good design and has good performance potential... hence is why you see more n/a 7AGE's than n/a 5SGE's. Even turbocharged... these characteristics stay with the engine. In the 5S's case... n/a 5SGE isn't gonna be worth while. a turbo 5SGE (5SGTE) is the equalizer, since the turbo takes greater advantage of the displacement.

Am I starting to make sense yet? I'm not saying a 5SGTE is a bad build... it's an excellent build for say... a drag engine... but strictly speaking horsepower... a 3SGTE can match it. Hell... when people start talking about how such and such made 600 horses with a 5SGTE... I'll answer... you can make that much with a 5SFTE if you match the 5SGTE mod for mod. It's all about $$$ when it comes to boost...
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that was an awesome explanation kwanza...you should write a book on this stuff...6TH Gen Celicas for Dummies,

This post has been edited by Jdog1385: Aug 19, 2005 - 3:33 PM

[GMan]

> Punch
> '95 GT Hatchback
>If do this will be the frist 1 to have a 2.2 3s-gte in a 6gen????

Nope, been done several times. Sorry to tell U.
I saw one running in Vegas at a meet.
It had a severe traction issues with all the power
it was putting down. :-) Good burn out Queen.

How about This one ?
http://www.nhrasportcompact.com/2005/drivers/l_ferrer.html
(not quite stock any more... :-)

Stroker kits, hybrid engines; etc..: Are Not for the faint
of heart, or small of wallet. A lot of issues come up.
What ECU for One, plus wiring...

A stand alone is the Easiest and least expensive in the Long run.
But a killer initial investment.

Might be better to have someone that has already done it, do the work
for you ?

my 02c.

There is a LOT, Really a Lot if info out there.
Just search several boards, MR2, alltrac.net,
Toyomods etc.. or even Google.

Regards;

[Punch]

thew link does not work

[Punch]

I saw that car run a 8.5 at moroso
that car is a full RWD race car!!! that don't count...



This post has been edited by Punch: Aug 22, 2005 - 11:34 PM

[Punch]

I did my home work on that car. It was built for drag; it put 850hp !!!

[Defgeph]

punch any more pics of that car or maybe a website ?