V6 swap, for me, better than 3S-GTE, Yep, here we go again Options

[Einhander]

It'll be done eventually. I personally would atleast have the motor in the car by now if i still had a full garage, Fabrication is not a problem, it's the wiring that will slow me down.

I am also looking at other swaps that the 1m will open up, Consider the 2a*i believe* from the tc shouldn't be a issue and has nice aftermarket support.

[Jeremy1210]

I think its a great idea, and kudos to you folks for trying something new.

One thing though that pisses me off are comments from Kwanza, lagos and super. You know you got a swapped 3s congratufreakinglations to you. Kudos that you did it yourself. Congrats that you have the time, tools, skills, and place to do the swap yourself. Good on you

Now why don't you stop negative jerks about some guys trying to do something new?? Give him some helpful answers or don't say a thing.


Anyway, I for one appreciate your knowledge of cars and swapping a 3s. You all have been helpful to people with their swapped 3s or when swapping thier 3s.

[Dr_Tweak]

Yes, I'm planning on doing one on a 6th gen this summer if all goes well.

Allright I will state from the start I am NO expert on this and dont take my word as law. I was gonna start emailing tweak about this here pretty quick along with other people, but lets just get the biggest Info thread going.

1MZ vs. 3MZ: I dont really know much about the 3MZ sep VVTi and a few other things, I personaly never considered it because it is out of my budget.

1MZ breakdown: I chose it because they are cheap, reliable, and parts are very easy to come by.

Motor Mounts: I have a buddy who did this on his MR2 he was able to use 3 of the stock 5s mounts and had to custom fab the 4th I will try and get pics, I hold this to be true for the celica swap as well.

Transmissions: 3sge, 5sfe, turbo mr2, solara I am pretty sure the Solara is the only one that I believe that requires a ST205 rear mount.... I am gonna run 5s.

Wiring: From the information I have collected so far on this, its gonna be a pain in the arse. Idealy a complete solara setup would be nice but this isnt a perfect world. I need todo some more information here but all West Coast solara's are automatics, and I believe most if not all Camry's were too. If this being the case you would need to track down a East coast solara wiring harness and ECU and it should be easyer... That being said those are expensive and hard to come by, I am very interested in knowing if a Automatic ECU can be tricked into a manual setup and if so how? Once I get more of these questions figured out I plan on combining my 2 harness together then sorting out what is not needed.

Fuel system: I plan on just adding a Supra TT pump

Hood clearence: without it ever being done its a hard call, I believe it shall fit, stock hood would not clear the TRD supercharger tho.

My thoughts on this swap from when I decided to ditch the 3sgte project for now anyways, was a decently quick DD and reliabality. I am shoting for about 200whp in the end. 1 thing you have to consider tho is that this is a Aluminum block vs. the steel block of the 3sgte, this v6 boosted with the TRD supercharger will never see the likes of over 250whp, its basicly the same concept of the 7afe where it doesnt get that much over stock. I plan on later down the road turbo charging it but not much boost just to see what it can do but that would probley be 07 at least. I know about 2 months ago when my 7a decided to start buring oil like a mofo it was either ST205 it or v6 and at this point the v6 suits my needs.

Thoughts comments anything really, I really want to get tweaks insite.

DTE

Motor mounts: remember that if you're using your stock GT tranny, then the three mounts on the tranny will bolt up fine, you just need to make one mount that attaches to the front of the engine.

Tranny: Since plenty of people use the GT tranny with their 3SGTEs, I see no problem to try using it with the V6. Obviously you can also use the E153, in which case it's exactly like installing one with a 3SGTE.

Wiring: Send both harnesses and ECUs to Dr Tweak along with $350, get it back, install, drive. Problem solved.

Here's the thing: there are always little problems that come up, and until someone tries this with a 6th gen we won't know what they are. Personally, I feel that the V6 swap is highly underrated and I plan on making it a commonplace swap if all goes well. I have put the numbers together and I think that the V6 could be installed for at least a thousand less than a 3SGTE, depending on what options are chosen. Not to mention, the V6 is easier to work one for the typical mechanic whereas a lot won't touch a more complex engine like the 3SGTE, they are easy to find parts for, and easy to replace if you blow one up!

-Doc

[Punch]

help on the new swap, dont turn the man away let him do it so the whole 6gc fam can have somthing diffrent to do....
we all can't have a 3s-gte(that's what I'm doing)
I seen a V6 Solara turboed so if we can put that motor in a 6g we can do alot to it ( it's been done more than once)
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/351910/3

[Shigexile]

man, i didn't know that corola's and solora's were making big numbers like these

This post has been edited by Shigexile: Jan 19, 2006 - 11:20 AM

[celi_gt_racer]

This whole concept is completely awesome..... and i too wouldn't mind having one of the first v6 celica's! Someone just needs to get poppin on this idea and keep this thread alive!! Good luck to all - and when get some money saved up ... i'm comin to tweak to hook me up w/ the supercharged v6 swap **evil laugh**
Newayz - keep up the great info and maybe this will be a great alternative swap one day!

[snapshotgt]

Not to mention, the V6 is easier to work one for the typical mechanic whereas a lot won't touch a more complex engine like the 3SGTE, they are easy to find parts for, and easy to replace if you blow one up!

-Doc

...this is a very good point...long term...it looks like the V6 is a better way to go...man tweak, your making me think about this more!!! I'm leaning toward the V6 over 3sgte b/c of tweaks point...lol...well, just will have to think about it more and more!!

later,
snap

p.s. ...i wish this decision was easier...

[Kwanza26]

I think its a great idea, and kudos to you folks for trying something new.

One thing though that pisses me off are comments from Kwanza, lagos and super. You know you got a swapped 3s congratufreakinglations to you. Kudos that you did it yourself. Congrats that you have the time, tools, skills, and place to do the swap yourself. Good on you

Now why don't you stop negative jerks about some guys trying to do something new?? Give him some helpful answers or don't say a thing.

Here's the deal... we're being realistic. If you have no idea what sort of work is needed for a custom swap, let alone an original custom swap... YOU are the ones who *NEED* realistic opinions. Who gives a rats a$$ if it's a cool or original swap? It'll be cool to have an M5 V10 in a Celica... but would it be a practical swap? Umm... no. Would it be an easy swap? Umm... no. Who's gonna help you? Umm... no-one. Get off the "awesome" chair and ask serious questions besides "wouldn't it be cool if..." Maybe you'll get some answers. Ask for opinions... and you get opinions.

[Kwanza26]

i don't want to know if/who/weither/choice. I need to know about the 3MZ and it's similarities with the 1MZ and most importantly the problems that i will encounter or might encounter, like hood clearance for example.

We should be talking about engines and trannys and electrical and mounts and axles and fuel systems, dimensions, etc.... Please, i don't want this thread to turn into the crap i found searching about it.

Thanks

p.s. no offense to anyone here but stop treating me like a damn n00b and READ the first post, i already mentioned that i wasn't going to do this alone.

Not treating you like a noob... but you didn't ask a question...

The 3MZ is an overbored version of the 1MZ. The engines are basically the same thing size-wise. Both the 3MZ and 1MZ are available with VVTi. There are many many versions of the 1MZ which date back all the way to 1992... so be specific on what you want and which engine you'll use. They vary greatly in terms of manifolds, sensors, wiring, power, etc over the years. They bolt up to the same E153 as the 3SGTE, so one would assume they can also bolt up to the S54 trans. The tranny mounts can be the stock ones so long as hood clearence isn't an issue (an NO... no-one can answer that for you right now)... but the motor mounts, possibly exhaust DPs, plumbing, etc will all need to be custom. Wiring is a custom job as mentioned, and arguably the part that stalls an engine swap.

[Kwanza26]

...this is a very good point...long term...it looks like the V6 is a better way to go...man tweak, your making me think about this more!!! I'm leaning toward the V6 over 3sgte b/c of tweaks point...lol...well, just will have to think about it more and more!!

This whole concept is completely awesome..... and i too wouldn't mind having one of the first v6 celica's! Someone just needs to get poppin on this idea and keep this thread alive!! Good luck to all - and when get some money saved up ... i'm comin to tweak to hook me up w/ the supercharged v6 swap **evil laugh**
Newayz - keep up the great info and maybe this will be a great alternative swap one day! smile.gif

These types of responses are why (although I don't want to speak for anyone else) I don't sugar coat things. Sorry for the guys that are being singled out... but really... I don't think you guys need anything extra to fantasize about. Know what it takes to do a swap before you go off dreaming about one. Unless of course you have enough money to pay others to do it for you... and in that case... I recant. =]

I do agree with Tweak to some degree (except on the ease of parts)... that an MZ swap can be made much more reliable and streetable than a 3SGTE... however, that's simply the nature of a normal street engine versus a force fed sport engine.

[K-ESD]

Thank you very much for the response (most of ya )
Specialy Clipsetuner and Doc - I'm printing all that info out, it's what I need thanks again

aside from your constructive critisim (meaning it has been worth something) Kwanza26, thank you for the info on the 3MZ, this is what i was looking for.

as far as $$ go, no one will prove me that a 3S-GTE will cost me less. I have crunched the numbers with the highest cost expectation for the swap and still, the V6 beats the 3S-GTE by a large margin, concidering getting one and upkeeping it. (supreme costs more than regular btw ) I can find most of the parts localy and thats a big factor for me.

[snapshotgt]

snapshotgt:

...this is a very good point...long term...it looks like the V6 is a better way to go...man tweak, your making me think about this more!!! I'm leaning toward the V6 over 3sgte b/c of tweaks point...lol...well, just will have to think about it more and more!!

Kwanaza:

These types of responses are why (although I don't want to speak for anyone else) I don't sugar coat things. Sorry for the guys that are being singled out... but really... I don't think you guys need anything extra to fantasize about. Know what it takes to do a swap before you go off dreaming about one. Unless of course you have enough money to pay others to do it for you... and in that case... I recant. =]

Responce from me:

Well Kwanza, i don't know why you "singled" me out...i was just commenting on what the doc said...b/c i will be swaping soon (note: i'm not "dreaming about one")...and yes, i will be having the doc do the swap, so you can "recant".

~snapshotgt

p.s. sorry, i did something funny with the reply/quote thing...made my own ^^ lol.

This post has been edited by snapshotgt: Jan 19, 2006 - 3:17 PM

[K-ESD]

as for the labour, my "team", as i would like to call it , consists of relatives, friends, and local car enthusiats that are willing to help me out with this one. I will pay for their work, just not at the price of a swap shop. I don't doubt their skill either, most of them have done swaps and custom fabrication. Altho it worries me a little that it's something they have never done, i have confidence in them and myself.

I will be getting my hands dirty, i'm not gonna stand there and watch. I am learning and whatever i don't do, i will make sure i know what has been done and how it was done. As for electrical, this is where I shine, i'm a electrical engineer student and i'm just dying to get my hands on that big pile of wires called "the harness". If I can't do it, Doc is gonna get mail

i could go on about this but it's really not important to this thread so....

anyone else want to chip in their knowlege relating to the v6 (1MZ or 3MZ) swaps?

Thanks

[K-ESD]

hood clearance is gonna be an issue... unless there is more vertical room in the 6th than the 5th gen... ugly bulge until i can afford a gt-four front end conversion

[K-ESD]

Sorry for the consecutive posts

i picked this out of celicatech.com

link: Celicatech

Yup, runs like a champ. I suggest signing up for an account over at mr2oc.com and reading their V6 forum extensively. If you have any specific questions after doing that, feel free to contact me.

I've got a 1997 Toyota Avalon V6 engine, the 1MZ-FE. It's mated to a 5spd from a 1999 Toyota Camry Solara V6. I wanted to maintain the manual shifting I had before, but was hasty and purchased an engine from an autotranny car. So I had to do some minor extra wiring and had to purchase a manual tranny ECU to plug into my 1997 harness.

You can usually find a complete engine, with ECU and harness, for about $1000. I suggest you spend the extra dough and find a complete package with a 5spd already attached. This means your options are reduced to the Camry V6 and Camry Solara V6 but you won’t have to source things like a clutch, flywheel, ECU, etc. The 1MZ also came in the Sienna, ES300, and RX300.

You will need to make some custom engine mounts, but the engine does fit into the engine bay. You will need to convert the stock fuel rail on the V6 to a return system. You will need to run custom coolant lines. Axles will bolt up with the right combination of parts (MR2 inner bolted to Alltrac outer). The rear header needs to be modified to clear the steering rack.

If I remember correctly, including a custom headerback exhaust, it came to about $4k. If you are smart about your purchasing, and also do the work yourself, I don’t see why it can’t be done for under $3k.

For that, I get a car that runs solid 14s in the quarter mile, is fun and easy to drive on the street, gets over 30mpg on the highway, and passes smog.

If you wanted to go overboard, you could also fit the TRD supercharger and add another 50hp, though I don’t know how well the supercharger will fit into the Celica engine bay.

[lagos]

as for the labour, my "team", as i would like to call it , consists of relatives, friends, and local car enthusiats that are willing to help me out with this one. I will pay for their work, just not at the price of a swap shop. I don't doubt their skill either, most of them have done swaps and custom fabrication. Altho it worries me a little that it's something they have never done, i have confidence in them and myself.

I will be getting my hands dirty, i'm not gonna stand there and watch. I am learning and whatever i don't do, i will make sure i know what has been done and how it was done. As for electrical, this is where I shine, i'm a electrical engineer student and i'm just dying to get my hands on that big pile of wires called "the harness". If I can't do it, Doc is gonna get mail

i could go on about this but it's really not important to this thread so....

anyone else want to chip in their knowlege relating to the v6 (1MZ or 3MZ) swaps?

Thanks

there are 2 major problem that i see with your thinking. 1 is cost. you never know how much something is going to cost, untill its all said and done. the funny thing with car is, that you can do all the planning in the world, and still have unexpected things that happen, that change your budget in a drastic way.

2nd problem i see, is that you are depending on your friends to do this for you. i was thinking the same thing when i did my swap. i talked to a bunch of guys that i know that do all kinds of crazy work on their 11sec, rollcaged DSMs. they all told me the same thing, "hell yeah, bro... we will pop that motor in for you in a weekend! it will be awesome! " . then when the clip go to my garage, i called all of them back and they were nowhere to be found. so, one lesson youll quickly learn (like i did), is that this is YOUR SWAP, your car, and your money. if a few of your buddies come over for the weekend to give you hand, than thats awesome, but it will be you laying under the car, all alone at night, trying to figure out how to finish it. your buddys will head out the door quick when the going gets tough, because its not their car, and not their problem.

------

as for reliability.... its foolish for anyone one to expect any motor swap, na, trubo, or v6, to be 110% realible. you are using a motor that came ouf of a car that no one wanted (this goes for the 3sgte as well) you dont know how it was treated, when the oil was changed, or if its blown when you get it. just keep that in mind and know that you will be poping the hood a lot more often then you ever had to do with your stock motor.

------

as for the people who think that some of us are bashing you. we are just trying to help you. we know what its really like to do a swap. you always hear people say " oh that one is easy, you just pop that motor in and its done", but thats just hype talk. the reality is that any sawp is a ton of work and a lot of stress.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jan 19, 2006 - 4:03 PM

[K-ESD]

it's very true i depend on many in order to accomplish this but i have very good bonds with these people, we always helped each other with whatever in the past. Those people don't say "pop the engin' ina weekend yo", most of them are my relatives and they are decent trusting people, but i do see your point. It's my car, my project, my responsibility regardless what happens.

I certainly don't expect this to be easy, this is the purpose of this discussion, to make it possible. Everything always goes wrong, i know that. I have spent full days, head up side down doing wiring on my car, same goes when i changed my struts, it's that one rusty bolt that f-ed up everything. Note that i did that myself and i didn't have clue how to do it, same when i changed my alternator and when i took the whole front end appart to run some wires. I learn as i go. It's part of the hobby.


as for reliability
after 269000+ kms things start to break, i can't see a swapped engine being much worst. Of course there's always the possibility of getting a bad engine, thats annother point towards the MZ, you can get it localy and often can be seen running. If not, you can always go break the junker's knees if he rips you off.

It's a good thing to list the pros and cons, can never be too prepared

[Kwanza26]

The only thing a man can rely on is what he can and cannot do.

[K-ESD]

right

i'm still going to attempt it even if i have to do the whole darn thing myself

[lagos]

right

i'm still going to attempt it even if i have to do the whole darn thing myself

well at least you are tinking on the right track now. good luck