N2o NOS ZEX NX, what do you think???? Options

[lagos]

gom run a 50 shot direct port hopefully with about 10 psi... I got a PRO putting it in...

famous last words... lol

nitrous is easy to install

tuning for it and using it in moderation is the hard part.

im talking about the "getting a pro to tune it" part. how the hell do you tune your fuel and timing to accept an instant hit of 50hp out of nowhere? these econo motors are just not strong enough for that type of stress, and the ecu has no clue as to how to compensate for something like that.

you can get a pro to tune it, but it will still blow up if you get an idiot using it.

[Punch]

no blowing up over here...
i will keep u all informed...

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

What is this doing in the Turbo forum? Is nitrous forced induction? I came a cross a kit here awhile back and thought about putting on my car. But I would only ever run a 25 shot on my 5sfe. Do they even make jets for 25 shots? Oh well, I passed on it. When everyone thinks something is aa certain way, that's usually because it is. Sometimes that can be wrong, but if your putting a 50 shot into a 5sfe, they're most likely right. Professional tune or not, the 5sfe won't handle that suddenly. I'd think you would at least need some major ECU upgrade to even make it affective.

[shin]

erm just to clarify things. he intends to put the nitrous kit on his 3s not on his 5s. he's currently in the process of swapping. he blew his 5s awhile ago.

[Cutrara]

How did he blow his 5S? Nitrous? lol

[JoKeRkId613]

What is this doing in the Turbo forum? Is nitrous forced induction? I came a cross a kit here awhile back and thought about putting on my car. But I would only ever run a 25 shot on my 5sfe. Do they even make jets for 25 shots? Oh well, I passed on it. When everyone thinks something is aa certain way, that's usually because it is. Sometimes that can be wrong, but if your putting a 50 shot into a 5sfe, they're most likely right. Professional tune or not, the 5sfe won't handle that suddenly. I'd think you would at least need some major ECU upgrade to even make it affective.

There's two reasons it's on this forum, the 3S has a turbo and nitrous is forced induction. They make 25 shot jets. trust me, with a 25 shot on a 5S, you'll hardly feel anything.

How did he blow his 5S? Nitrous? lol

If I'm not mistaken, he spun a rod bearing or something. No nitrous.

[Punch]

yup dam bearing....

[kenjamatic]

had a friend that went through 3 5sfe motors on his 5th gen celi shooting nitrous....he was doin 14's at the quarter mile and basically was a stock engine....oh yeah don't knoe what he was thinking but he was shooting 100 shots...if you have a 3sgte and got everything done right i don't think you would really need nitrous...but that's just my opiniun...

[Punch]

a little nitrous = alot of fun...
Its not gonna be used every day only twice a week LOL....

[NuclearHappineS]

i hate this thread.

did your friend that go through 3 5sfe's have a dry kit ? did he have an upgraded fuel pump ? did he have an EGT gauge ?

you can't blame the nitrous... i bet your friend put together some 250 dollars, bought a used nitrous kit and put it on a stockish car and ran it till it blew up and then redid that 2 more times ...

punch... go for it

i suggest:

EGT gauge
window switch
fuel pressure safety switch

if a pro is installing it he'll know about all of this...

the most important is the EGT gauge as it will be the only way for you to know if you're pushing too much forced induction (Turbo + n2o) through the motor.

As far as the stupid is n2o forced induction thread... the answer is yes... nitrous comes out at between 700 and 1200 psi and thus it has the ability (if you had a big enough bottle/ jet) to increase your hp between 94 and 162 times if your motor could stand breathing that much nitrous... as far as it being 'forced' then yes it is the most forced form of forced induction.

there are alot of non toyota people that swear by nitrous...of course they know how to use it.

-nuke

[NuclearHappineS]

'im talking about the "getting a pro to tune it" part. how the hell do you tune your fuel and timing to accept an instant hit of 50hp out of nowhere? these econo motors are just not strong enough for that type of stress, and the ecu has no clue as to how to compensate for something like that'

how do you tune a motor to accpet some 21 lbs of boost coming in between 3000 and 4000 rpm ?

tuning the motor comes down to 2 things really...tuning the fuel , tuning the ignition timing...

there are other things you can do (tune the cam timing, adjust the 'lobe seperation angle' to maximize nitrous delivery, tune your headers and exhaust for the increased flow, port your head and intake manifold to achieve better n2o distribution if you;'re not going direct port)

but ignoring all that since this is only a 50 shot ...

how do you adjust the fuel ?
the kit takes care of it either by raising your fuel pressure for dry kits or by spraying the extra fuel through wet nozzle....or if you're bad ass you add injector duty cycle through your standalone with a complex dry kit.

how do you adjust your timing?
well nitrous does burn faster than regular oxygen. That's why it requires timing retard. That you you maintain peak cylinder pressure far enough after top dead center to prevent detonation, and to maximize power deliver ... you need 1-2 degrees of retard for every 100 hp added to the motor. given that this is only a 50 shot then you only need 0.5-1 degrees of retard...and given that this is a toyota motor then i'd be damned if toyota put in less than 0.5-1 degree of safety margin in their stock tune...and given that nitrous comes in at some -200 degrees ferenheit then detonation is not really an issue untill you start trying to cram alot of it into the motor ...and given that most kits out of the box are tuned around 10:1 A/F ratio or richer it's very hard for you to even get to the point where you NEED the suggested retard by the manufacturer.

you adjust the timing by backing off your base timing, or by using an msd btm or a crane timing master, or having a different timing map ... or using an apexi ITC and having retard in the higher rpms (say 3000-redline) where you'd be using the nitrous ... or by not retarding the timing at all but always running higher octane or race gas when you spray (which burns slower, hence not requiring timing retard at all)

have you ever heard of a nitrous/methanol kit... it's a wet kit that uses methanol as the supplimentary fuel...methanol is @ 114-117 octane.. you need to ADVANCE your timing to run that kind of a nitrous kit because the octane is so high that the mixture burns slower than the stock mixture...so you advance your timing to bring Peak cylinder pressure back where it needs to be to maximize power delivery...

then there's other things to tune...

some people use nitrous delay boxes or use really short fuel lines to the fuel solenoid and really long lines from the nitrous solonoid ... this softens the 'hit' which really reduces the length of the initial lean spike caused by nitrous flowing faster than the fuel ...

other things to tune are cam timing... advanced exhaust cam timing helps
usually having a seperate fuel pressure regulator on the supplimentary fuel suppline line allows you to fine tune your a/f ratio on the juice without affecting your tune off the nitrous... besides changing jets is more a dramatic change in a/f numbers... whereas adjusting fuel pressure is more gradual...

last but not least ...it is no longer an instant hit of 50 hp... with the newer kits you don't feel it hit anymore...

both the new nitrous oxide system's Noszle (direct port under the injector) kit and their new pro race fogger direct port kits are very soft hitting ... i've seen a dyno of the noszle kit in a mustang magazine spraying a 100 shot and they had the old style dyno output vs rpm

it looks something like this :

3000 +18
3100 +34
3200 +75
3400 +100

so it never really 'hit' ... it gradually came in over 400 rpms... the new nitrous wet kits are the same ...they use the 'soft plume' nozzles that are meant to soften the blow of the nitrous introduction (which is where most damage can occur to the engine) ... and they started going this route mainly because on direct port kits you have little distance between the nozzle and the cylinder so the effects of the activation lean spike could be amplified while the fuel tries to keep up with the nitrous...

year after year nitrous is getting safer and more attractive

-nuke

[NuclearHappineS]

to quote a very intelligent nitrous user (runs his own shop, builds his own kit)

To add to what ******* was saying about softening the hit there are also a few other things that can be done to make it come in softer. Running a digital delay on just the nitrous solenoid helps a ton to time the events of nitrous and fuel hitting the plenum at the same time (because they never do) and also can be used as a poor mans traction control device by letting the system spray additional fuel for a few hundreths of a second so the tune goes rich right off the bat. On a well tuned system this works really well, on a "manufacturer reccommended tune" it is pretty much bog city. Biasing the line lenths between the solenoids and nozzles (making the fuel lines roughly 50% shorter) has a very similar effect. The changes are dramatic on a narrowband (yes I know they suck) A/F gauge and should also be quite visible on a wideband with the sample rate cranked.

The acutal length of the line is somewhat irrilevant, the ratio between the nitrous and fuel lines is what is key. Please note this is not the gossepel of nitrous tuning, just one of the many anal retentive little things I like to do to my systems. Here is what I like to do and why:

Hard Lines: always and everywhere ya can. They look better, they support solenoids without the need for solenoid brackets, and their inner diameter stay constant under pressure.

Line Bias: nitrous line (from solenoid to nozzle) should be roughly double the length of the fuel line. I have not put enough effort into researching this to find out exactly what lengths at what pressures work ideally but from what I have seen a 50% bias gets ya in the ballpark. You will notice that the system will hit quicker and will not have any of the bucking/sputtering crap going on that plagues a lot of single nozzle users.

[Punch]

I will go for it, it will be in the car soon...