7AFE to 5SFE ?, Upgrade 25hp? Options

[bigblock261]

I have a '95 ST Liftback 5 speed (AT200) with a bad 7AFE. I kinda hate to replace it with another anemic 7AFE but I'm not up to the 3SGTE swap. I see no mention of a 7AFE to 5SFE swap on the boards except that it is not plug-and-play and it is as much trouble as a 4AGE 20V or a 3SGTE.
MY question: What is required to upgrade my AT200 from 7AFE to 5SFE, and what year or years ST204 GT should I select as a donor car?
I'm hoping to hear I'll need the ECU and engine wiring harness from the ST204 and that the engine will bolt up to my transaxle. If the swap requires harness splicing and pinout changes I'll probably just settle for 110 HP and stick with the 7AFE. Thanks for any info.

[jgreening]

It wont bolt up to the car or the trans and you will have wiring issues. In other words, it is just as much trouble as the 3s swap like you read.

[bigblock261]

Bummer. I guess I'm destined to the low power, good economy, and dependability of the trusty 7AFE. Thanks.

[Digndoug]

Bummer.  I guess I'm destined to the low power, good economy, and dependability of the trusty 7AFE.  Thanks.
[right][snapback]223624[/snapback][/right]

LMAO.. lol.... WTF... good luck..

[Chrobis]

To change over the 5s all you would have to change, like a 7a-fe to 3s swap would be:

Engine
Electrical system
Transaxle
Engine/tranny mounts
ECU
and wiring harness


I dont know why there would be wiring problems.... if its a USDM harness it should be plug and play (a 5S-FE harness)

But the wiring of the 3S has to be lengthened, and if its from a 2nd gen, rewired to fit into the internal harness. This would not need to be redone considering that the internal harness from a 7a-fe and 5s-fe are the same.

[Chrobis]

But on a side note, a 3s-swap will end up costing you pretty close to the same price :-P

USDM engines are expensive compared to Used JDM engines...

Also, consider doing a newer 20v 4a-ge swap, as the wiring is easier, the closer the year of the engine and car are.

[bigblock261]

I see that swaps are a topic of much discussion, and one of the the main subtopics is wiring difficulties. Absent from the theme is a How-to Article complete with a debugged cross-wiring diagram for the most popular swaps into the most popular chassis'. Probably because it is such a massive undertaking not only to complete but to document. This certainly intimidates the novice and even the wrench-bender. Even though there have been some successful swaps, residual issues, as Chrobis signature states, seem to be the rule as opposed to the exception. That's enough to scare me off. And make me think there might be a market for a shop with the knowlege and skills to perform a turn-key swap. A running car, out the door, debugged, revving properly, meeting emmissions, and capable of making the guy in the other lane say "Damn that's a runnin' Celica!". Do these shops exist?

[Chrobis]

Yes, these shops do exist.... But the problem is them being in such remote locations. Truthfully most "tuner" shops should be able to handle this, in reality they dont know much then you do sometimes.

Only shops I know of that are "Pro's" at toyota swaps are EL Prototypes in Los Angeles Area and another shop in Florida somewhere, where all they do is toyota swaps.

My swap dosnt work because of who I went to. I also had Qatar do my wiring, which seems to be my only problem, mechanicly the engine sits and runs fine.

Almost any shop will be able to handle a 7a-fe to 5s-fe swap. Most shops should be able to handle a 7a-fe or 5s-fe swap to a 3s-gte having dificulties when it comes to wiring. Same go's with a 7a-fe to 4a-ge.

Lar's recent post of his teammates car's is proof that almost anything can be done. There is a st-204 with a Caldina 3s-gte with AWD automatic w/ tiptronic transmision.

Just do research before doing any of these swaps, and make sure your shop knows what to do, not just think they can.


also, on a side note: a 7a-fe to 5s-fe swap is not going to be worth the money as the difference is not that noticable, and therefore should only do a 3s or 4a swap or stick with a 7a-fe

[bigblock261]

Thanks for the insight. It helps. On this one I'm going to stay with the stock configuration.
BTW I went to high school in Belmont just up the peninsula from San Jose, back in the sixties. Let me tell you hot rodding was alive and well in the Bay area then, and I saw one of the first sub-7 second 1/4 mile Top Fuel passes at Fremont. Shoot, Pro Stocks run 6.60 on 2 four barrels nowadays at over 200. And Top Fuel is running 4.4 seconds @ 333 mph. Blowers and tires got them there.


Hey, that 3SGTE is turbocharged. Hmmm.

[Hanyo]

the swap should not be that hard.. get a totaled gt celica and move everything over.

since its another US celica everything should just be transferable.

the only think you have to worry about is the motor mounts.

But after this swap you can easily do the 3sgte motor swap afterwards.. you will have more experience about the celica. and the correct trany and motor mounts to work with.

[BBoYRuGGeD]

just adding a suggestion but u can also do what frotou did to his hotness of a car and go 7A-GTE... or just do a rebuild and beef the engine up for a turbo

[bigblock261]

UPDATE: We purchased a '94 7AFE from a wrecking yard with 89K miles showing, freshened the timing belt, tensioner pulley, water pump, spark plugs, and clutch. Time was wasted trying to remove and replace only the engine. (It comes out relatively easy if the crankshaft pulley is removed). We were unable to stab the replacement engine back in, with the transaxle still in the car. At last we removed the transaxle, then handily put them together (after recentering the clutch disc, it had slipped off center, presumably during initial attempts, as we had tried depressing the clutch to coax it together. Didn't work. That pilotless input shaft was a headache).

One more day's work had everything back together and running great.

Tip: Don't EVEN try to take apart the exhaust pipe at the flange behind the rearmost motor support. It will be rusty and impossible to work with. We cut the pipe about six inches forward of the flange, in the straight section, using a exhaust pipe cutoff tool (looks like a pair of pliers with a cutter attached). Later, we used a temporary splice (We took the forward section of the exhaust pipe to the muffler shop, as an example. They made up a very short piece of tubing to join the pipe back together, held with 2 muffler clamps). Once finished, we drove to the muffler shop and had it welded back together for $10. The splice tube was discarded.

We missed being able to drive the Celica while it was out of service, especially when gas got to $3.49 after Hurricane Katrina. Had to break out the V8 pickup (gas hog).

[95CelicaST]

Nice to hear it is up and running. You could have looked at maybe a 4AGE silvertop when you were still shopping. It would have bolted right in (minus the wiring).

[bigblock261]

It would have bolted right in (minus the wiring).

Ahhh wiring. Therein lies the rub.

[95CelicaST]

Dr. Tweak could have done the wiring for 350 I think he said, not too bad IMO, but again, sounds like you got a nice deal on that 7A.

[j0e_p3t]

go with the 4age. i think that would be easier than any other engine cuz its also an "a series" engine.