Controlling boost for better traction, and other means of improving grip Options

[CilverSeliST205]

Racelogic Traction Control - the Supra guys swear by it.
Racelogic Traction Control

As for your wastegate device, in application, I do not think that it would work any differently from RPM dependent boost control since its not the onset of boost that causes problem but a boost point that the wheels spin at a given gear and RPM. Also, the list I created was one of realistic options - not pipedreams. j/k

Oh in my pipedream list of grip improvers i forgot to mention filling the tire tread grooves with superglue+egg yolk mixture that gives unlimited grip and positive tread wear

But all in all, you'r right, rpm dependent boost control... well apex'i avcr can do that right?? if it has sufficient memory for at least a two boost vs rpm maps then i will get the avcr instead of eboost2 since its cheaper.

I will put a feeler group buy thread together for the traction bars to see if there is sufficient interest before contacting Carl - he is just like any other business man - he will do it if there is money to be made.

DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT

This post has been edited by CilverSeliST205: May 23, 2006 - 11:10 AM

[jgreening]

1. Wider / stickier tires
2. Traction control computer ($1000+)
3. RPM/Gear Dependent Boost Control - boost controller or EMS.
4. Traction bars (would be a fabricated piece but alot of fwd hondas have aftermarket pieces available)

5. Stiffer motor mounts
6. Stiffer suspension
7. Wastegate/spool-up control - progressive opening of the wastegate could be used to bring the boost up at slower rate - staying within traction limits
8. Limited slip diffrentials

9. Superglue and egg yolk tread application

[lagos]

You can't just drive around in slicks all the time kindasad.gif

are you saying that your traction problems are SO bad that you need something for everday use? i find that a little hard to belive. all you need is a good set of street tires and a little driver skill and you should have pretty good traction for anything you need to do on the street. most of the hard driving i do on the street starts out from a 2nd gear roll and i try to control the car with my right foot.


how exactly do traction bars work and where do they bolt on to? i always thought of them as something that sticks out from the back of the car to help reduce weight transfer.

[jgreening]

You can't just drive around in slicks all the time kindasad.gif

are you saying that your traction problems are SO bad that you need something for everday use? i find that a little hard to belive. all you need is a good set of street tires and a little driver skill and you should have pretty good traction for anything you need to do on the street. most of the hard driving i do on the street starts out from a 2nd gear roll and i try to control the car with my right foot.


how exactly do traction bars work and where do they bolt on to? i always thought of them as something that sticks out from the back of the car to help reduce weight transfer.

Art, its not that he has no choice but to spin the tires. He is saying that he cannot harness all of the power for quicker accelleration on the street. Frankly, I have this problem every time I get in my car. Its frustrating to dump all this money in a car and then not be able to use the power.

This is an excellent thread. Keep the info coming guys....no more pipe dreams though.

[presure2]

thing is art...you never really drive your car hard enough...lol j/k
you know what i mean tho...most guys that swap dont baby the car as much as you do, especially in the lower gears...
i know for me..anytime i get on it in 1st, or 2nd, traction IS a problem.
i think the idea of gear dependant boost control is a VERY viable option for guys like us.

[CilverSeliST205]

You can't just drive around in slicks all the time kindasad.gif

are you saying that your traction problems are SO bad that you need something for everday use? i find that a little hard to belive. all you need is a good set of street tires and a little driver skill and you should have pretty good traction for anything you need to do on the street. most of the hard driving i do on the street starts out from a 2nd gear roll and i try to control the car with my right foot.

Art, its not that he has no choice but to spin the tires. He is saying that he cannot harness all of the power for quicker accelleration on the street. Frankly, I have this problem every time I get in my car. Its frustrating to dump all this money in a car and then not be able to use the power.

Exactly !

how exactly do traction bars work and where do they bolt on to? i always thought of them as something that sticks out from the back of the car to help reduce weight transfer.

I started researching traction bars right after posting this topic and i found this info [Credits to John Pajak, Mike Bloomer for this information.]

Traction / No Hop Bars
The coil spring traction bars are actually upper control arm positioners. You don't see 'em unless you crawl under the car and actually look way up there.

They do make slapper-style bars for the GM coil spring A-bodies. I've heard they work great but would prefer the stealth of the upper control arm relocation type of traction device.

Traction bars are only for leaf spring cars because a leaf spring car the springs control the "bounce" and locate the axle. In a high hp car, the spring will twist between the axle and the front spring eye. What the traction bar does is make a solid link between the axle and frame when the axle tries to twist.

As far as coil spring cars, traction bars wouldn't do anything since you already have solid suspension links. Equivalents would run the gammut from ladder bars to lift bars and hop stop bars. Ladder bars are just that though I haven't seen them around for years. Basically they worked just like on a drag car but they didn't work all that great.

Lift bars and/or hop stop bars or upper bar relocators all work by revising the stock 4 link geometry. All the upper echelon drag cars with tube frames run 4 links and the GM 4 link can be made to work just as well. The lift bars usually replace the bottom bars and are popular for 5.0's (different susp design) but I think I have seen them for 64-78 A bodies.

The hop stop kits and upper bar relocators move the axle mount for the upper bar higher moving the instant center of the 4 link closer to the center of gravity of the car. With proper tuning, the factory 4 link can get enough traction to launch very hard (pull front wheels off the ground w/10" slicks) but to do so, it usually requires strip only modifications to soften up the suspension for wieght transfer. As far as looking good, most cars I've seen with traction bars look riduculous because it is actually rare to see one that's adjusted right.

[Kadett]

Racelogic Traction Control - the Supra guys swear by it.

Racelogic Traction Control

I will put a feeler group buy thread together for the traction bars to see if there is sufficient interest before contacting Carl - he is just like any other business man - he will do it if there is money to be made.

My car will be finished by the end of this week I hope. So from then on I can experience of I also have a lot of traction issues. If its are unbearable I will go for the Racelogic TCS rightaway. 18" tires cost a fortune here (the good one's)Not that thats the reason I want TC, the real reason is for the winter/rain period. Already had it with the 3S-GE engine on a Incline slippery conditions+worn tyres going backwards, what an ackward moment was that!

Biggest problem for me will be fitting the wheel sensors. since my car does not have ABS.
Maybe when the time comes, I will get a TRD/Kaaz 1,5 LSD. But I think to much mechanical grip will destroy the tranny in the long run. And spare/junkyard trannies are rare here.

About traction bars, if they are a direct fit for EU GT (which i think they will) I'am also interested but shipping would be a PITA.

[lagos]

thing is art...you never really drive your car hard enough...lol j/k
you know what i mean tho...most guys that swap dont baby the car as much as you do, especially in the lower gears...
i know for me..anytime i get on it in 1st, or 2nd, traction IS a problem.
i think the idea of gear dependant boost control is a VERY viable option for guys like us.

dont get me wrong, its a problem for me too, but i just think back at all the hard acceleration/racing that i have done and 80% of it was always from a roll. i would break loose for a few seconds but was alwasy able to regain the lost traction, by controling the throttle. i think most of it is all about the tires you put on the car. lets face it, most of us have tons of money thrown into our cars but alwasy cheap out on tire choice. i laugh when i see stock civics with better tires then i have..lol

This post has been edited by lagos: May 23, 2006 - 12:57 PM

[CilverSeliST205]

so, you launch the car at ever stop light and floor it all the way through 1st and 2nd when daily driving the car? lol

No the issue is not only launch, even on a roll at any rpm point in 1st and 2nd gear stompin WOT will make my wheels spin after i reach higher boost level

dont get me wrong, its a problem for me too, but i just think back at all the hard acceleration/racing that i have done and 80% of it was always from a roll. i would break loose for a few seconds but was alwasy able to regain the lost traction. i think most of it is all about the tires you put on the car. lets face it, most of us have tons of money thrown into our cars but alwasy cheap out on tire choice. i laugh when i see stock civics with better tires then i have..lol

Your right, but when i got my brand new yokahama parada spec2 (im not saying they are great or anything like that, but they are not bad either), I still had the same issue, and it feels as no street tires can handle that power...

[lagos]

what tire do they put on the stock SRT-4's?

No the issue is not only launch, even on a roll at any rpm point in 1st and 2nd gear stompin WOT will make my wheels spin after i reach higher boost level kindasad.gif

yeah, mine does the same thing... but i have a feeling that even if you turn the boost down to 7psi, it will still be enough to break you loose.

This post has been edited by lagos: May 23, 2006 - 1:24 PM

[CilverSeliST205]

what tire do they put on the stock SRT-4's?

BF Goodrich gForce-KDW, i think.

yeah, mine does the same thing... but i have a feeling that even if you turn the boost down to 7psi, it will still be enough to break you loose.

If so then the max boost is not the problem, but rather the speed of boost increase. And if so, then rpm dependent boost controllers should make a big difference...

[jgreening]

I nominate this thread for sticky.

[CilverSeliST205]

I nominate this thread for sticky.

Cool Lets keep the good info coming (traction related that is...)

A few great links for people who want to know about everything about differentials

http://www.club4ag.com/faq%20and%20tech_pa...rential_101.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_slip_differential
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential6.htm

Boost controllers with rpm/tps/speed inputs :

TurboSmart E-Boost - http://www.turbosmart.com.au/index.php?id=42
A'PEXi AVCR - http://www.apexi-usa.com/product_electroni...d=200&pageNum=1
Blitz SBC-iColor - http://www.blitz-performance.com/Blitz_SBC_iColor.htm
Greddy Profec E-01 - http://www.greddy.com/prod_profecE01.htm

And link to the group buy feeler, join in if you would be seriously interested so Jay's buddy can start making those
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showto...=0&#entry437529

This post has been edited by CilverSeliST205: May 24, 2006 - 3:04 PM

[jgreening]

Here is the Full-Race Article on traction bars:

Traction Bar Article

[presure2]

interesting reading, guys.
jay, how will this bolt to our cars?
im very interested to see where exactly this will bolt to, and how it will sit in the car.

[swerve]

Racelogic Traction Control - the Supra guys swear by it.

In regards to the racelogic traction control.

I spoke with the local distributor in Australia. Parts + Fitting = AUD$2900 (approx US$2150)

These things sound HOT!

The unit works by reading the wheel speeds sensors in the ABS setup (very easy to add the sonsor if you don't have ABS). It reads in 1/1000 second intervals so it is very responsive. When it detects a slip from the wheels speed sonsor, it skips an injector cycle (for all intents let just say this is like a misfire, but without the fuel).

The greatest thing about the unit is not only do you have 0% slip, 10% slip, 20% slip etc settings for the traction control buts you also get 2 other awesome features thrown in.

1. Launch Control (check out the racelogic site for the supra drag vid) Maintains a preset rev level for rising of boost prior to launch.

2. Flat shifting. a switch on the clutch pedal recognises the clutch is depressed, and limits the rev to a preset level with your foot still flat on the throttle (maintaining boost)

So whilst it seams pretty bloddy expensive, all 3 features make it a solution worth saving for, for my setup.

[CilverSeliST205]

Torque Damper (AKA Engine Damper) - I read somewhere that it is a way better alternative to stiffening motor mounts, because it has all the positives without the negatives (excessive vibration). I also read somewhere that kids in japan with budget fwd project cars will use just about any damper (for ex. bicycle or hatch) and custom fit it with little fabrication skill. Anyways here is short description of what torque damper is and what benefits it provides, from Ingalls website:

A self-contained elastomeric shock that mounts on brackets between the engine and the chassis. It reduces extreme engine movement and dampens the motion, providing many benefits. The “Stiffy” was originally intended for the sport compact market, but can be used for some Hot Rod applications if it is applied correctly.
Benefits
Greatly improved off-the-line acceleration
Reduced wheel hop
Improved vehicle stability
Reduced shock loads on driveline components
Smoother shifting
Reduced wear on exhaust system joints
Less vibration transmission to the driver compared to polyurethane motor mounts.
Less shock load, compared to torque straps and chains.
Drifting – helps reduce shock loads when wheels gain traction.
Reduces motor movement – decreases the chance of motor parts rubbing against
the hood and frame.

As far as I know there is no dampers for 6gc but I would love to see someone attempt to custom make one.

This post has been edited by CilverSeliST205: Jun 12, 2006 - 1:10 PM

[playr158]

those "stiffy's" are pretty universal...all you need is a bit of common sense and some sheet metal/bolt and you can mount it...probably a pretty easy application

[presure2]

Torque Damper (AKA Engine Damper) - I read somewhere that it is a way better alternative to stiffening motor mounts, because it has all the positives without the negatives (excessive vibration). I also read somewhere that kids in japan with budget fwd project cars will use just about any damper (for ex. bicycle or hatch) and custom fit it with little fabrication skill. Anyways here is short description of what torque damper is and what benefits it provides, from Ingalls website:

A self-contained elastomeric shock that mounts on brackets between the engine and the chassis. It reduces extreme engine movement and dampens the motion, providing many benefits. The “Stiffy” was originally intended for the sport compact market, but can be used for some Hot Rod applications if it is applied correctly.
Benefits
Greatly improved off-the-line acceleration
Reduced wheel hop
Improved vehicle stability
Reduced shock loads on driveline components
Smoother shifting
Reduced wear on exhaust system joints
Less vibration transmission to the driver compared to polyurethane motor mounts.
Less shock load, compared to torque straps and chains.
Drifting – helps reduce shock loads when wheels gain traction.
Reduces motor movement – decreases the chance of motor parts rubbing against
the hood and frame.

As far as I know there is no dampers for 6gc but I would love to see someone attempt to custom make one.

hrmmm...imma look into this somemore.. good stuff guys! keep it coming!
thinking about this abit more...(and after seeing the price..340$!!!) in the alltrac, it basicly has a torque bar going from the engine to the frame on the passanger side of the engine...i wonder how much somthing like that would help..that wouldnt be too hard to fabricate either....
JEFFFFFFF?????!?!?!

[lagos]

ive been thinking about adding an alltrac like torque bar to my motor, forever now.


you guys remember that really nice blue supra from the meets? he added one of those torque bars onto his car (similar to the pic above). he said he used something really cheap that he found on ebay and just had to custom fit it to work. ill have to ask him some more details about it next time i see him.