Controlling boost for better traction, and other means of improving grip Options

[CilverSeliST205]

For a while i was considering buying myself a new toy, Turbosmart E-Boost 2, an EBC with a variety of features, one of them being the capability to map boost against time, rpm or GEAR. Now, I have noticed that breaking the traction on street tires is likely to occur not only on a hard launch from a dead stop, but also at WOT in 1st and 2nd gear short time after going over 10psi. Since this unit can control boost depending on gear i guess we could use it to stay within limits of traction in those gears! yes? no? suggestions? comments?

Since im still on internal WG and my actuator is on 13-14 psi, the EBC itself wouldn't help... Is there a way to lower WG actuaction pressure?? That is without welding the flapper shut and going external.

This post has been edited by CilverSeliST205: May 23, 2006 - 12:13 AM

[Supersprynt]

The AVCR has that feature also. You have to teach the computer what gear is what. I am thinking about doing that as soon as I get more familiar with the controller though because setting it up to prevent initial over/under boost is kinda complicated.

[brianforster]

i cant wait for this topic to be more developed this is something i was toying with posting but never got around to it, it seems like it could optimize your boost for launches and get the swapped guys times down by a bunch..

i know jeff ran a 13.9 at 12 psi cause 1st/2nd gear traction at 15 psi was giving him slower times

[phattyduck]

Since im still on internal WG and my actuator is on 13-14 psi, the EBC itself wouldn't help... Is there a way to lower WG actuaction pressure?? That is without welding the flapper shut and going external.

What turbo are you running? The stock ST185 wastegate is set around 7psi and the ST205 wastegate is around 9-10psi... The extra boost then comes from the TVSV bleeding some boost from the wastegate actuator.

-Charlie

[jgreening]

Its a good idea. It is a topic that I have thought alot about. Here is a list of ways to address traction issues:

1. Wider / stickier tires
2. Traction control computer ($1000+)
3. RPM/Gear Dependent Boost Control - boost controller or EMS.
4. Traction bars (would be a fabricated piece but alot of fwd hondas have aftermarket pieces available)

I think you should do #1 before #2 or #3 because it is allows you to harness more power. The same might be said for #4 but its really uncharted territory for the 6gc.

[lagos]

its all about the tires. running less boost might give you more grip, but will also make less power. the best thing to do is to do is to get some slicks when you go to the track.

as far as gear based boost control, all your really need is any ebc. the greddy typ-s i have has low and high boost settings. you can change the low boost to whatever you want in 1st gear, and then press the button to high boost when you are ready to go all out. they even sell a remote switch for your steering wheel so that you can press the button while driving.

for daily driving or street fun, all you need is a good pair of tires. im running kumho asx, and while they are not the best tire in the world, they seem to do a good job griping on a dry road. with 225-45-17s that i have, you can feel the car starting to want to break loose, but still keeping traction most of the time.

the last thing to remember is that its still a fwd car. you cant lauch at 5k and floor it in 1st gear like you can with an awd car.

This post has been edited by lagos: May 22, 2006 - 10:41 PM

[Defgeph]

As noted above, a wide pair of stickies would do the job. Traction bars are something I havent thought about. I could try making a pair for my car.

[brianforster]

could you guys explain what a traction bar is?

[Defgeph]

Edit : Bolts up to the front.

[brianforster]

so youd have to remove them to street drive it?

[Defgeph]

so youd have to remove them to street drive it?

These can be left in all the time.

[CilverSeliST205]

1. Wider / stickier tires
2. Traction control computer ($1000+)
3. RPM/Gear Dependent Boost Control - boost controller or EMS.
4. Traction bars (would be a fabricated piece but alot of fwd hondas have aftermarket pieces available)

5. Stiffer motor mounts
6. Stiffer suspension
7. Wastegate/spool-up control - progressive opening of the wastegate could be used to bring the boost up at slower rate - staying within traction limits
8. Limited slip diffrentials

[brianforster]

then in my opinion traction bars for our car should definitly be made, if jeff cant do it maybe we could contact a company for a group buy

[CilverSeliST205]

What turbo are you running? The stock ST185 wastegate is set around 7psi and the ST205 wastegate is around 9-10psi... The extra boost then comes from the TVSV bleeding some boost from the wastegate actuator.

-Charlie

its from '95 jdm sw20
i know i know my screename is misleading

its all about the tires. running less boost might give you more grip, but will also make less power. the best thing to do is to do is to get some slicks when you go to the track.

You can't just drive around in slicks all the time

as far as gear based boost control, all your really need is any ebc. the greddy typ-s i have has low and high boost settings. you can change the low boost to whatever you want in 1st gear, and then press the button to high boost when you are ready to go all out. they even sell a remote switch for your steering wheel so that you can press the button while driving.

Two settings isn't going to bring you to the limits of traction in each gear... but pretty close

for daily driving or street fun, all you need is a good pair of tires. im running kumho asx, and while they are not the best tire in the world, they seem to do a good job griping on a dry road. with 225-45-17s that i have, you can feel the car starting to want to break loose, but still keeping traction most of the time.

the last thing to remember is that its still a fwd car. you cant lauch at 5k and floor it in 1st gear like you can with an awd car.

I have noticed that breaking the traction on street tires is likely to occur not only on a hard launch from a dead stop, but also at WOT in 1st and 2nd gear short time after going over 10psi.

[jgreening]

1. Wider / stickier tires
2. Traction control computer ($1000+)
3. RPM/Gear Dependent Boost Control - boost controller or EMS.
4. Traction bars (would be a fabricated piece but alot of fwd hondas have aftermarket pieces available)

5. Stiffer motor mounts
6. Stiffer suspension
7. Wastegate/spool-up control - progressive opening of the wastegate could be used to bring the boost up at slower rate - staying within traction limits
8. Limited slip diffrentials

I am not sure that 5 or 6 would help with traction
7 is the same as 3
8 is one I forgot because I already have it

[CilverSeliST205]

1. Wider / stickier tires
2. Traction control computer ($1000+)
3. RPM/Gear Dependent Boost Control - boost controller or EMS.
4. Traction bars (would be a fabricated piece but alot of fwd hondas have aftermarket pieces available)

5. Stiffer motor mounts
6. Stiffer suspension
7. Wastegate/spool-up control - progressive opening of the wastegate could be used to bring the boost up at slower rate - staying within traction limits
8. Limited slip diffrentials

I am not sure that 5 or 6 would help with traction
7 is the same as 3
8 is one I forgot because I already have it

5. Stiffer motor mounts help reduce wheel hop caused by motor vibration, but that is only an issue with a hard launch...
6. Stiffer suspension does help to keep grip on corners and also on launch, i know that from my own experience
7. Full wastegate control, like a device which you can plug into computer and see the graph of boost vs rpm vs angle of the gate, yes any ebc has an option which lets you set the point of opening the wastegate prior to reaching max allowable boost, and that is used to fine tune for best compromise between laggy spoolup and boost spike. A device/feature in ebc that I am talking about is opening a wastegate at a chosen angle at a chosen boost/rpm/time and therefore modifying the output of a turbo to produce power slower/less torque in lower gears, not necessarily just stoping boost increase at preselected level (any ebc), but allowing the boost to rise at slower rate can help stay in grip. With such device you could fine-tune power level to meet the margin of your tires' grip...
8. I'm jealous

[jgreening]

7. Full wastegate control, like a device which you can plug into computer and see the graph of boost vs rpm vs angle of the gate, yes any ebc has an option which lets you set the point of opening the wastegate prior to reaching max allowable boost, and that is used to fine tune for best compromise between laggy spoolup and boost spike. A device/feature in ebc that I am talking about is opening a wastegate at a chosen angle at a chosen boost/rpm/time and therefore modifying the output of a turbo to produce power slower/less torque in lower gears, not necessarily just stoping boost increase at preselected level (any ebc), but allowing the boost to rise at slower rate can help stay in grip. With such device you could fine-tune power level to meet the margin of your tires' grip...

I have never heard of such a thing. Do you have a link I could look at?

[jgreening]

Edit : Bolts up to the front.

Maybe I will see if Carl wants to produce a set for a group buy....

[CilverSeliST205]

I have never heard of such a thing. Do you have a link I could look at?

Nope, never heard of it either but such device SHOULD exist, I mean it would be too beneficial for turbo FWD cars to be able to manipulate power output is such way. Well I hope that in today's era of SRT4 someone will surely will see a great value to such device/feature, and some performance parts producer will surely relase a product capable of such WG control.

About them traction control computers, what are our options and on what principle do they work?

Maybe I will see if Carl wants to produce a set for a group buy....

Please do! I would certainly be down to get one of these

This post has been edited by CilverSeliST205: May 23, 2006 - 9:32 AM

[jgreening]

Nope, never heard of it either but such device SHOULD exist, I mean it would be too beneficial for turbo FWD cars to be able to manipulate power output is such way. Well I hope that in today's era of SRT4 someone will surely will see a great value to such device/feature, and some performance parts producer will surely relase a product capable of such WG control.

About them traction control computers, what are our options and on what principle do they work?

Maybe I will see if Carl wants to produce a set for a group buy....

Please do! I would certainly be down to get one of these

Racelogic Traction Control - the Supra guys swear by it.

Racelogic Traction Control

As for your wastegate device, in application, I do not think that it would work any differently from RPM dependent boost control since its not the onset of boost that causes problem but a boost point that the wheels spin at a given gear and RPM. Also, the list I created was one of realistic options - not pipedreams. j/k

I will put a feeler group buy thread together for the traction bars to see if there is sufficient interest before contacting Carl - he is just like any other business man - he will do it if there is money to be made.