GM knock sensor thread Options

[lagos]

is that an ATS TB inlet? looks nice. i ordered one last week!

Yup, I ordered that and the GM Knock Sensor Conversion for Doc to install. Along with the healthy dose of goodies that he's putting in the car.......should be really niiiiiiice.

i woudlnt recomend using the GM knock sensor. it dosnt work correctly for our cars and ats should stop selling it imho. keep the stock sensor.

[Fastbird]

Fastbird, I have a question for you. Sent you PM regarding the old motor.

PM Replied to.

is that an ATS TB inlet? looks nice. i ordered one last week!

Yup, I ordered that and the GM Knock Sensor Conversion for Doc to install. Along with the healthy dose of goodies that he's putting in the car.......should be really niiiiiiice.

i woudlnt recomend using the GM knock sensor. it dosnt work correctly for our cars and ats should stop selling it imho. keep the stock sensor.

What exactly doesn't work with it?? Have you actually tried one and had issues??

[jgreening]

knock sensors work because they blow when detonation occurs rather than grenading your engine. The reason people switch to the GM sensor is because it is "stout" and doesn't blow as often as the Toyota one. Just what I want in a knock sensor

[Fastbird]

knock sensors work because they blow when detonation occurs rather than grenading your engine. The reason people switch to the GM sensor is because it is "stout" and doesn't blow as often as the Toyota one. Just what I want in a knock sensor

That makes no sense at all. The purpose of the knock sensor is not to defeat detonation by "blowing" as you seem to think. What the knock sensor does is detect knocking in the motor, relay what it's seeing to the computer, which in turn retards timing to get the motor to stop knocking.

The problem with the Toyota knock sensors is that they're not very hardy. One good bout of knock and you've got a dead sensor. Next time you end up getting knock, with a dead sensor not detecting it, you are at MUCH increased risk of damaging your motor. I can personally attest to the GM knock sensors putting up with a TON of knock and not even batting an eye, I've seen it myself both in car and on the dyno multiple times.

For the time being, I'm convinced that the GM conversion is a smart move.

[jgreening]

For the time being, I'm convinced that the GM conversion is a smart move.

Go read about the people on mr2oc.com that have blown up their 3sgte using the GM knock sensor. As for my comment, I meant that the Toyota knock sensor will blow under serious detonation event. Is this ideal? Of course not. Is it better than grenading your engine? Of course.

The problem with the GM knock sensor from the reading I have done is that it simply misses alot of detonation. Some posts have indicated that it is "listening" for a different frequency. I have no idea if this is true or not. What I do know is that I have read about more than a couple examples of broken ringlands with engines with the GM knock sensor.

This post has been edited by jgreening: Jul 10, 2006 - 1:46 PM

[lagos]

knock sensors work because they blow when detonation occurs rather than grenading your engine. The reason people switch to the GM sensor is because it is "stout" and doesn't blow as often as the Toyota one. Just what I want in a knock sensor

That makes no sense at all. The purpose of the knock sensor is not to defeat detonation by "blowing" as you seem to think. What the knock sensor does is detect knocking in the motor, relay what it's seeing to the computer, which in turn retards timing to get the motor to stop knocking.

The problem with the Toyota knock sensors is that they're not very hardy. One good bout of knock and you've got a dead sensor. Next time you end up getting knock, with a dead sensor not detecting it, you are at MUCH increased risk of damaging your motor. I can personally attest to the GM knock sensors putting up with a TON of knock and not even batting an eye, I've seen it myself both in car and on the dyno multiple times.

For the time being, I'm convinced that the GM conversion is a smart move.

the GM sensor is tuned to a different frequency. its not going to hear a lot of the detonation that is going on and wont report detonation as well as the toyota one.

the only time the toyota ones blow, is when there was very massive detonation. if this ever happens, it will throw a cel code right away and you will know about it. youll never be driving on a blown sensor and now know it. think of it like a fuse.... its the first thing to blow, and if it does, the ecu will go into safe mode and youll be glad the knock sensor is all that broke.

ive had my factory one for 2+ years. never had any issues with it.

i know your trying to do the right thing for your motor, but this is one of those times where you should just trust the guys who have had their swaps for a while and have done a ton of research into this.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jul 10, 2006 - 1:56 PM

[Fastbird]

Ok guys, I can understand what you're saying now. The reason when first presented didn't mention anything about frequencies for the respective sensors, and the statement just seemed out in left field. Now that you've explained it a little better it makes perfect sense. Thanks for the clarification.

[jgreening]

i know your trying to do the right thing for your motor, but this is one of those times where you should just trust the guys who have had their swaps for a while and have done a ton of research into this.

I love this quote and plan to utilize it in my signature. Thanks Art.

Good luck with the car when its complete FastBird. Doc will fix you up!

[lagos]

i roxors @ teh wizdomz

[Fastbird]

Well guys, after digging around on MR2OC for a while today, I've seen some good information on the knock sensors, but not enough to warrant having Doc go in there to undo what's already been done (the KS swap). We're just going to press on with the convesion as it's already installed, and granted while I did see guys claiming they didn't work and one or two guys with issues, that can happen with ANY part, and I saw a lot of good information supporting the GM KS conversion also.

I do appreciate the information and words, but I think this may be a case of long tubes vs. mid length headers in the F-Body world. I.E. it could easily swing either way (NO ONE ABUSE THAT STATEMENT )

[lagos]

Well guys, after digging around on MR2OC for a while today, I've seen some good information on the knock sensors, but not enough to warrant having Doc go in there to undo what's already been done (the KS swap). We're just going to press on with the convesion as it's already installed, and granted while I did see guys claiming they didn't work and one or two guys with issues, that can happen with ANY part, and I saw a lot of good information supporting the GM KS conversion also.

I do appreciate the information and words, but I think this may be a case of long tubes vs. mid length headers in the F-Body world. I.E. it could easily swing either way (NO ONE ABUSE THAT STATEMENT )

its a case of sticking a bigger fuse into your fuse box, because your fuses keep blowing out. aka, not the right way to fix a problem. but hey, its your motor.

[jgreening]

Well guys, after digging around on MR2OC for a while today, I've seen some good information on the knock sensors, but not enough to warrant having Doc go in there to undo what's already been done (the KS swap). We're just going to press on with the convesion as it's already installed, and granted while I did see guys claiming they didn't work and one or two guys with issues, that can happen with ANY part, and I saw a lot of good information supporting the GM KS conversion also.

I do appreciate the information and words, but I think this may be a case of long tubes vs. mid length headers in the F-Body world. I.E. it could easily swing either way (NO ONE ABUSE THAT STATEMENT )

Fastbird, did you see this thread? If not, I would read that before proceeding. Good luck.

[Dr_Tweak]

Okay, normally I let things like this slide, but I've got to step in here. I know you're all probably just trying to help, but keep this in mind:

Number one, this thread is about Fastbird's 3SGTE swap, so let's please not fill it with endless posts about the GM knock sensor. Make another thread if you want.

Second, the GM knock sensor is NOT being used to "correct" a knock problem. If an engine is knocking, there is something WRONG with it, and replacing it with a "larger fuse" as you said would be a mistake.

THIS IS NOT WHAT'S GOING ON HERE.

Fastbird is replacing the sensor because they often show up broken and he was one step ahead. I've read that thread that was mentioned above, and many more about the sensor. While there is no lack of argument on the subject, real world testing and results that have been delivered from ATSAaron AND John at J&S (You DO know who J&S is, don't you?) show that the GM knock sensor functions just fine. It's not a cure to knock and no one is saying it is! It's just a less expensive sensor that works perfectly fine.

Lastly, this is Fastbird's engine, Fastbird's swap, he's done the research, and it's his decision to make. Thank you all for your suggestions and comments. Case closed.

This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Jul 14, 2006 - 7:03 AM

[lagos]

You're not a professional mechanic and you're not an engineer, so lay off.

neither are you.

[WannabeGT4]

You're not a professional mechanic and you're not an engineer, so lay off.

neither are you.

burn!




Also... knock sensors are application specific... different blocks resonate at different frequncies hence different knock sensors. Monitoring the wrong frequency is not what you want to do when trying to detect knock. PERIOD.

EDIT: Just read the link that Jay posted. It is definitive proof that you should not use a GM knock sensor. Read 510Rob, RickyB's and ATSAarons posts on the second page.

This post has been edited by WannabeGT4: Jul 11, 2006 - 6:40 PM

[brianforster]

i promised myself id stay out of this but how does atsaarons post in that thread prove you shouldnt buy that knock sensor? just curious

[Dr_Tweak]

You're not a professional mechanic and you're not an engineer, so lay off.

neither are you.

LOL, well if that's the way you feel, I'm not going to argue with you about it Don't get me wrong, and don't get pissed at me about it. I like you, and I think that you're a great asset to this forum. I'm just bringing to your attention that you sometimes come across as a jerk the way you talk down to people. I'm not the only one that's noticed it.

I make a motion for a mod to start a new thread about knock sensors and move all knock-sensor related posts out of this thread and into that one.

-Doc

This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Jul 11, 2006 - 8:19 PM

[jgreening]

i promised myself id stay out of this but how does atsaarons post in that thread prove you shouldnt buy that knock sensor? just curious

pure and simple, he is biased. He sells a GM sensor adapter kit. He does so because so many people have problems with knock sensors blowing. I imagine he has sold a ton of them and made pretty good money out of it. Buying the GM sensor will reduce the occurence of blowing knock sensors. However, as has been pointed out, that should not be your first concern when selecting a knock sensor.

Most times knock occurs because of too much timing, "hot spots" on cylinders or cylinder walls, too rich or too lean condition, ineffective intercooling or other problems that should be addressed to GET RID OF THE KNOCK. Buying a different sensor so you dont get timing retard (knock response) is similar to buying a less sensitive fire alarm for your house so that you aren't woken up at night when there is "just a little smoke".

[brianforster]

thanks for clearing it up jay, im going to have to say that i would definitly go OEM with a sensor like a knock sensor, but at the same time fastbird and tweak are big boys and if they choose to go that route even after reading the warnings then that is between them

[jgreening]

thanks for clearing it up jay, im going to have to say that i would definitly go OEM with a sensor like a knock sensor, but at the same time fastbird and tweak are big boys and if they choose to go that route even after reading the warnings then that is between them

I agree. But, Doc's attacks on Art were out of line, IMO. Art does more for this community in providing information and troubleshooting advice than ANYBODY! Plus I like his hair.