GM knock sensor thread Options

[presure2]

Plus I like his hair.

that in itself is worth a couple points in my book, seeing as how i have NONE.
LMAO.

[Dr_Tweak]

thanks for clearing it up jay, im going to have to say that i would definitly go OEM with a sensor like a knock sensor, but at the same time fastbird and tweak are big boys and if they choose to go that route even after reading the warnings then that is between them

I agree. But, Doc's attacks on Art were out of line, IMO. Art does more for this community in providing information and troubleshooting advice than ANYBODY! Plus I like his hair.

I'm going to have to see this hair I think

Back to the subject at hand, jgreening, you're still going back to the issue of using the GM knock sensor to "fix" a knocking engine. As I agreed, that's not the right reason to use this and would be a bad idea. The problem has to be fixed, not the symptom! But from the research I've seen and my own experience, there's no problem using a GM knock sensor as a less expensive replacement.

A good thing to think of is that if you purchase an MSD knock monitor, it comes with a GM sensor. Since this is a device that a tuner would use on a dyno to watch for detonation, and it's accurate enough for that, then wouldn't it be accurate enough for the ECU?

-Doc

This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Jul 14, 2006 - 7:05 AM

[WannabeGT4]

thanks for clearing it up jay, im going to have to say that i would definitly go OEM with a sensor like a knock sensor, but at the same time fastbird and tweak are big boys and if they choose to go that route even after reading the warnings then that is between them

I agree. But, Doc's attacks on Art were out of line, IMO. Art does more for this community in providing information and troubleshooting advice than ANYBODY! Plus I like his hair.

Art has been nothing but helpful to everyone. I don't know how someone could label him a jerk. Just because his responses are short and concise doesn't mean he's being a jerk... You have to take into consideration that he is one of the most active 3S swapped members on this board so he's going to get a lot of questons thrown his way. We should be thanking him for even taking time to answer all of these questions, not criticizing his internet etiquette... not to mention his help is free.

Thank you Lagos! You're an invaluable asset to this forum.

[WannabeGT4]

Back to the subject at hand, jgreening, you're still going back to the issue of using the GM knock sensor to "fix" a knocking engine. As I agreed, that's not the right reason to use this and would be a bad idea. The problem has to be fixed, not the symptom! But from the research I've seen and my own experience, there's no problem using a GM knock sensor as a less expensive replacement.

A good thing to think of is that if you purchase an MSD knock monitor, it comes with a GM sensor. Since this is a device that a tuner would use on a dyno to watch for detonation, and it's accurate enough for that, then wouldn't it be accurate enough for the ECU?

-Doc

If it can be used to "fix" a knock problem it can let that same problem exist where a stock knock sensor would alert the ECU. That's not something I want to happen. I'll stick with a sensor that is designed for the frequency that our blocks resonate at.

MSD knock monitor is just another tool. Just because it can detect knock doesn't mean it was meant for our ECU... This has already been covered in the MR2OC post that Jay linked to.

This post has been edited by WannabeGT4: Jul 11, 2006 - 10:31 PM

[lagos]

thanks for clearing it up jay, im going to have to say that i would definitly go OEM with a sensor like a knock sensor, but at the same time fastbird and tweak are big boys and if they choose to go that route even after reading the warnings then that is between them

I agree. But, Doc's attacks on Art were out of line, IMO. Art does more for this community in providing information and troubleshooting advice than ANYBODY! Plus I like his hair.

Art has been nothing but helpful to everyone. I don't know how someone could label him a jerk. Just because his responses are short and concise doesn't mean he's being a jerk... You have to take into consideration that he is one of the most active 3S swapped members on this board so he's going to get a lot of questons thrown his way. We should be thanking him for even taking time to answer all of these questions, not criticizing his internet etiquette... not to mention his help is free.

Thank you Lagos! You're an invaluable asset to this forum.

thanks man. that means a lot to me.



tweak... i just went back a read all my post in this thread. i think you should do the same thing. im sorry, but in this case, you are the one acting like an asshole. all i did was try to be helpful to fastbird. jgreening did the same thing and was trying to give the same exact advice as i did... yet you single me out? then you try to take some form of cheap shot about my wiring or how many swaps ive done vs you? wtf is that? you dont even own a celica, let alone a swaped one. why you talking cheap shots at me? greening never turns a bolt on his car, you dont put down his advice ?

you need to be a little more open minded and a little less sensative. im not a cheerleeder that cheers people on even when i see them making a mistake. im very honest and to the point. get used to it.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jul 11, 2006 - 11:15 PM

[sinner96ST]

Tweaks been an invaluable member to this site, as much as Lagos has been. You two should just shake hands, and get over it. Start an actual technical thread about the knock sensor, this one has gone to junk with the comments.

I respect & trust both of your opinions, but if you can't see eye to eye, at least explain the reasons and use factual information instead of insults & such to prove your point. We would get more out of this thread as a community, if everyone just did that instead of argue.

This post has been edited by sinner96ST: Jul 12, 2006 - 4:41 AM

[presure2]

tweak... i just went back a read all my post in this thread. i think you should do the same thing. im sorry, but in this case, you are the one acting like an asshole. all i did was try to be helpful to fastbird. jgreening did the same thing and was trying to give the same exact advice as i did... yet you single me out? then you try to take some form of cheap shot about my wiring or how many swaps ive done vs you? wtf is that? you dont even own a celica, let alone a swaped one. why you talking cheap shots at me? greening never turns a bolt on his car, you dont put down his advice ?

you need to be a little more open minded and a little less sensative. im not a cheerleeder that cheers people on even when i see them making a mistake. im very honest and to the point. get used to it.

X2
art, you know how much i appreciate your help around the forums.
tweek, your a valuble asset to this community as well, helping out the kids that cant, or dont wanna jump in and get theyre hands dirty themselfs.
lets all just sit back and have a beer, and move on.
if needed, we can just start another knock sensor thread.
i havent given my thoughts on the gm knock sensor thing, but in short, being that when you break it down, all the knock sensor is is a tuned microphone, and the 2 "microphones" we're talking about are tuned to 2 diffrent frequncys, i'd be concerned weather the GM one will pick up the frequency emmited by the cylinder walls when detonation occurs.
now, from some of the posts on mr2oc, it seems as tho the GM knock sensor DOES pick up knock, but the question is weather its picking up the proper FREQUENCY of the knock, since the 3s block basicly becomes the tuning fork.

[Fastbird]

Guys, I want to clear something up. I did NOT buy the knock sensor conversion so I wouldn't see knock. That would be a huge mistake (not to mention really uneducated buying), and I think that's where a lot of this is coming from. I bought the GM knock sensor conversion so that if I DID encounted knock suddenly and violently, I wouldn't be stuck paying $150 for a new knock sensor.

I think that a lot of the issue stemming this on is that there's most likely quite a few people who don't understand why knock happens and go buy the ATS kit thinking it's going to make the knock go away, which in itself is a HUGE mistake. You need to correct the condition that's causing the knock, not just change the sensor to make it go away (although I did that once because I had a faulty sensor in my T/A ). And like Lagos said, there's a variety of conditions that can cause knock to include hot spots in the burn, lean or rich conditions, too much timing, poor intercooler efficienty (essentially raised IAT's because as we all know as you compress something it heats up).

Something about the GM knock sensor thread from MR2OC that's buried towards the end. Didn't someone find that they actually have a +/-1K response?? In that case, shouldn't the GM sensor be just fine considering it was tested at 5700 and the Toyota one was tested at 6300?? (sorry if the numbers aren't correct, it's early and I don't feel like digging through that thread right now). Not to mention that there was a handful of guys in that thread who did datalogging and intentionally put the car into knocking conditions and got normal reactions from the GM knock sensor.

*Edit* I'd like to dicuss really quickly the knock resonance frequency seen in the blocks. I think we all agree that the bore size plays a major factor in the plan, but here's a though: What about the volume?? What I mean is that what if you're running a terrible intercooler, and you start getting pre-detonation with the cylinder in the bottom of the bore as opposed to the top of the bore?? Would that not drastically change the frequence which the knock resonates? If you take a bare block and tap a cylinder, it will be the same frequency every time. Cap that cylinder off at each end, and the frequency changes. Move one of those caps into the cylinder (stroke, or piston travel) and it changes yet again. *Disclaimer* This is just my own mind at work here, just getting a quick thought out about that.

I apologize for the big stink that's been made here by me for what seems to be the perception that I bought the kit just to not see knock. I didn't realize that's what what the interpretation seemed to be, and I hate to see tension like what's been coming out in this thread between some of the most respected members of this forum.

This post has been edited by Fastbird: Jul 12, 2006 - 7:08 AM

[brianforster]

one thing that doesnt make sense to me is you say you gave doc 7k to do this swap for everything yet you are shy about spending 150$ on an oem knock sensor?

[jgreening]

Fastbird and Doc:

Your logic escapes me here. Please explain why this statement from Justin does not concern you:

If it can be used to "fix" a knock problem it can let that same problem exist where a stock knock sensor would alert the ECU.

Thanks.

Jay

greening never turns a bolt on his car

Hey now, thats not true. I tightened a battery tie down once.

This post has been edited by jgreening: Jul 12, 2006 - 10:01 AM

[Dr_Tweak]

[quote name='jgreening' date='Jul 12, 2006 - 2:58 PM' post='455015']
Fastbird and Doc:

Your logic escapes me here. Please explain why this statement from Justin does not concern you:

[quote name='WannabeGT4' post='454874' date='Jul 11, 2006 - 10:30 PM']
If it can be used to "fix" a knock problem it can let that same problem exist where a stock knock sensor would alert the ECU. [/quote]

It can't be used to fix a knock problem. It never was intended to either.

-Doc

[CelicaSTX02]

I say, Fastbird should stick to the GM knock sensor......the worst that would happen is his engine blowing up. But hey...he'll be able to fix it because of all the money he saved by buying the GM sensor instead of the OEM one.

[jgreening]

[quote name='Dr_Tweak' date='Jul 12, 2006 - 10:08 AM' post='455016']
[quote name='jgreening' date='Jul 12, 2006 - 2:58 PM' post='455015']
Fastbird and Doc:

Your logic escapes me here. Please explain why this statement from Justin does not concern you:

[quote name='WannabeGT4' post='454874' date='Jul 11, 2006 - 10:30 PM']
If it can be used to "fix" a knock problem it can let that same problem exist where a stock knock sensor would alert the ECU. [/quote]

It can't be used to fix a knock problem. It never was intended to either.

-Doc
[/quote]

QUIT PLAYING WORD GAMES! You know the word "fix" was in quotation marks. Justin wasn't saying that the GM sensor could fix a knock problem. You know that. The question is: Why aren't you concerned (based on the information that we have all now read) that the GM knock sensor which is designed for a larger bore cylinder will not pick up some knock and possibly result in engine failure in a 3sgte?

This post has been edited by jgreening: Jul 12, 2006 - 10:17 AM

[presure2]

fastbird & tweek:
i think your misunderstanding us.
we understand your not using it to "correct" a problem.
what we are saying is that by using the GM sensor, knowing that its harder to blow...wouldnt you WANT to be safer knowing the OEM blows sooner if somthing goes wrong, putting you into safe mode?

as a side note, fastbird, i happen to have a OEM 3sgte knock sensor sitting at home, still on the block @ my moms house.
if you want it, i'd be willing to sell it to ya for a good price.

[CelicaSTX02]

fastbird & tweek:
i think your misunderstanding us.
we understand your not using it to "correct" a problem.
what we are saying is that by using the GM sensor, knowing that its harder to blow...wouldnt you WANT to be safer knowing the OEM blows sooner if somthing goes wrong, putting you into safe mode?

as a side note, fastbird, i happen to have a OEM 3sgte knock sensor sitting at home, still on the block @ my moms house.
if you want it, i'd be willing to sell it to ya for a good price.

lol, you should make this offer to everybody, how much are you selling it for?

This post has been edited by CelicaSTX02: Jul 12, 2006 - 10:33 AM

[Fastbird]

I say, Fastbird should stick to the GM knock sensor......the worst that would happen is his engine blowing up. But hey...he'll be able to fix it because of all the money he saved by buying the GM sensor instead of the OEM one.

This is an absolutely useless post. How about something constructive next time.

Yeah, I did drop $7K into the swap. And yes, I am concerned about having to possibly pay $150 for a part. What's the problem with that?? Just because I drop the dough doesn't mean I'm not conscientious about how my money is spent. Frankly, I find that a lot of Toyota's parts are overpriced. $150 for a knock sensor?? $400 for a freaking oxygen sensor (buddies 02 Tacoma)?!?!?!? When there's people running a GM sensor without issue (just because some people have issues doesn't mean all will) when it costs $25 and then those that insist on paying $150 for a OEM one, who's the stupid one there?

Yes, I am using the GM knock sensor because I know that it's harder to blow. Think about this: You're running the car hard without a datalogger. You start to get knock that you can't hear audibally, and it's working as advertised. Then the OEM one blows and before you have a chance to react (you're still in the gas) the knock continues and you pop a piston. I'd rather have the GM knock sensor in there with it's ability to take a bit more abuse than the OEM one.

This is turning into a pissing match more than anything. Obviously the OEM sensor works, and the GM sensor is proven to work also. Some like it, some don't. Leave it at that, and let those who choose to use the GM sensor use it without the condascending statements like "It's your motor" or what CelicaSTX02 said.

[presure2]

[quote]QUOTE(CelicaSTX02 @ Jul 12, 2006 - 11:08 AM)

I say, Fastbird should stick to the GM knock sensor......the worst that would happen is his engine blowing up. But hey...he'll be able to fix it because of all the money he saved by buying the GM sensor instead of the OEM one.
This is an absolutely useless post. How about something constructive next time.[/qoute]

X2
next comment like that will get you a nice vacation from the site, jacka$$.
[quote]Then the OEM one blows and before you have a chance to react (you're still in the gas) the knock continues and you pop a piston. I'd rather have the GM knock sensor in there with it's ability to take a bit more abuse than the OEM one.[/quote]
thats not how the ecu works tho...it detects knock, and pulls timing accordingly, if your in the gas hard, and it knocks hard enough to blow the knock sensor, the ECU drops you back into safe mode, using the preset "safe mode" map.

[WannabeGT4]

Fastbird and Doc:

Your logic escapes me here. Please explain why this statement from Justin does not concern you:

If it can be used to "fix" a knock problem it can let that same problem exist where a stock knock sensor would alert the ECU.

It can't be used to fix a knock problem. It never was intended to either.

-Doc

QUIT PLAYING WORD GAMES! You know the word "fix" was in quotation marks. Justin wasn't saying that the GM sensor could fix a knock problem. You know that. The question is: Why aren't you concerned (based on the information that we have all now read) that the GM knock sensor which is designed for a larger bore cylinder will not pick up some knock and possibly result in engine failure in a 3sgte?

LOL! Maybe I should have italicized the word "fix" as well. Thanks for clearing that up Jay.

Yes, I am using the GM knock sensor because I know that it's harder to blow. Think about this: You're running the car hard without a datalogger. You start to get knock that you can't hear audibally, and it's working as advertised. Then the OEM one blows and before you have a chance to react (you're still in the gas) the knock continues and you pop a piston. I'd rather have the GM knock sensor in there with it's ability to take a bit more abuse than the OEM one.

This is turning into a pissing match more than anything. Obviously the OEM sensor works, and the GM sensor is proven to work also. Some like it, some don't. Leave it at that, and let those who choose to use the GM sensor use it without the condascending statements like "It's your motor" or what CelicaSTX02 said.

Ever consider the fact that the GM sensor doesn't blow because it's not designed to "hear" the same frequency the Toyota sensor is.
You know that the knock sensor blowing puts the car into low boost mode right? Blowing the sensor will not alow you to continue knocking. It is a safety feature built into the Toyota ECU. If you have knock severe enough to blow your sensor there is obviously something wrong and it puts the car into low boost mode. That is, if you still have your T-VSV connected. If not you should at least have it wired to a light so you know when it's being activated by the ECU. Again, all of this is covered in the post that Jay linked to at MR2OC.

[Dr_Tweak]

I say, Fastbird should stick to the GM knock sensor......the worst that would happen is his engine blowing up. But hey...he'll be able to fix it because of all the money he saved by buying the GM sensor instead of the OEM one.

This is an absolutely useless post. How about something constructive next time.

Yeah, I did drop $7K into the swap. And yes, I am concerned about having to possibly pay $150 for a part. What's the problem with that?? Just because I drop the dough doesn't mean I'm not conscientious about how my money is spent. Frankly, I find that a lot of Toyota's parts are overpriced. $150 for a knock sensor?? $400 for a freaking oxygen sensor (buddies 02 Tacoma)?!?!?!? When there's people running a GM sensor without issue (just because some people have issues doesn't mean all will) when it costs $25 and then those that insist on paying $150 for a OEM one, who's the stupid one there?

Yes, I am using the GM knock sensor because I know that it's harder to blow. Think about this: You're running the car hard without a datalogger. You start to get knock that you can't hear audibally, and it's working as advertised. Then the OEM one blows and before you have a chance to react (you're still in the gas) the knock continues and you pop a piston. I'd rather have the GM knock sensor in there with it's ability to take a bit more abuse than the OEM one.

This is turning into a pissing match more than anything. Obviously the OEM sensor works, and the GM sensor is proven to work also. Some like it, some don't. Leave it at that, and let those who choose to use the GM sensor use it without the condascending statements like "It's your motor" or what CelicaSTX02 said.

'nuff said.

-Doc

[presure2]

'nuff said.

-Doc

not at all, its clear he really dont understand how the knock sensor system works.