the 4th gen 3s....(aka st215), people dont seem to like it much? Options

[easternpiro1]

ive been researching about the 215 swap that the good DR will be putting in for me and ive gotten alot of good advice, what i dont understand fully is how can the st215 be so different from the 185 and the 205? i was told looking for replacement parts would be a NIGHTMARE if at all possible, but the engine is mostly identical to an st185 and 205. im confused, someone please clear this up for me and provide more insight!

This post has been edited by easternpiro1: Aug 24, 2006 - 6:20 PM

[burneeed]

I dont know what your really asking here? To best answer your question though...... The biggest differnce I can se from a st205 to a st215 is the intercooler. Its no longer water to air... .air to air intercooler is not good.

If your willing to spend the money for the third gen clip over the 2nd gen clip go for it.

Differences wise between the two are pretty simple.... Turbo,intercooler,Map,Injectors,head gasket. Its basicly a motor you can boost pretty high and make it pretty fast from the get go. I meen you do not have to put too much money in after market wise to make it go fast. but the difference wise from a st185 is water to air intercooler ct20b turbo map system 550cc injectors and it has a MLS Head gasket.

Now a st185 clip is pretty cheep now. I have seen the whole clips go for a little under 2k which is damn good compared to what I paid for mine when I swapped out my 6gc. you can go this route if you want to get a decent 3sgte and make it faster in the future and its significantly cheeper than a 3rd gen. But you are not getting the water to air intercooler. Im not sure how much doc is charging for a front mount? And you are left with a ct26..... thats your biggest drawbacks oif the st185 clip.

Honestly I wouldnt go for the 215 clip. Having problems or having to source parts for that engine are going to be very very very hard. Its going to be a parts nightmare inmho.

[tomazws]

I wonder if you could drop that 4th gen 3S-GTE into a Matrix AWD...


I believe the 2007 Matrix dropped all the 4X4 models..

[easternpiro1]

I dont know what your really asking here? To best answer your question though...... The biggest differnce I can se from a st205 to a st215 is the intercooler. Its no longer water to air... .air to air intercooler is not good.

If your willing to spend the money for the third gen clip over the 2nd gen clip go for it.

Differences wise between the two are pretty simple.... Turbo,intercooler,Map,Injectors,head gasket. Its basicly a motor you can boost pretty high and make it pretty fast from the get go. I meen you do not have to put too much money in after market wise to make it go fast. but the difference wise from a st185 is water to air intercooler ct20b turbo map system 550cc injectors and it has a MLS Head gasket.

Now a st185 clip is pretty cheep now. I have seen the whole clips go for a little under 2k which is damn good compared to what I paid for mine when I swapped out my 6gc. you can go this route if you want to get a decent 3sgte and make it faster in the future and its significantly cheeper than a 3rd gen. But you are not getting the water to air intercooler. Im not sure how much doc is charging for a front mount? And you are left with a ct26..... thats your biggest drawbacks oif the st185 clip.

Honestly I wouldnt go for the 215 clip. Having problems or having to source parts for that engine are going to be very very very hard. Its going to be a parts nightmare inmho.

im basically asking for additional opinions of the 215. doc is going to be putting a fmic on there (im still looking for a decent one) and he also said the st215 is interchangeable with the other gen 3sgte, essentially saying finding parts wont be bad

[Outsider]

If I am not mistaken the 215 also has a direct fire wiring system like the BEAMS. ie: a coil pack on top of each sparkplug and no igniter needed. As for parts, if you have a chassis number and model number then you acan order any part you want from New Zealand. Only problem is the 8 week wait. I order ALL my BEAMS parts from there. They come right to my door.

This post has been edited by Outsider: Aug 24, 2006 - 7:07 PM

[easternpiro1]

If I am not mistaken the 215 also has a direct fire wiring system like the BEAMS. ie: a coil pack on top of each sparkplug and no igniter needed.

i heard about that but i looked for pics to no avail (im a visual learner)

[hitcachi]

im basically asking for additional opinions of the 215. doc is going to be putting a fmic on there (im still looking for a decent one) and he also said the st215 is interchangeable with the other gen 3sgte, essentially saying finding parts wont be bad

Why pay the ridiculous price for a caldina 3S when a 2nd gen 185 and 3rd 205 can do the same thing. And you would have money left over to spend on upgrading performance. The 4th gen has what.....10, 15, 20 whopping more horsepower stock then a 3rd gen! big friggin deal! You could get a 2nd gen, follow the 3S power primer and get more HP then a 4th gen with less money spent in the end. And you cant really argue newer motor casue you can find 3rd gens with like.... 40K on em. Thats just being broken in! But, what ever u wana do.

[easternpiro1]

[/quote]
Why pay the ridiculous price for a caldina 3S when a 2nd gen 185 and 3rd 205 can do the same thing. And you would have money left over to spend on upgrading performance. The 4th gen has what.....10, 15, 20 whopping more horsepower stock then a 3rd gen! big friggin deal! You could get a 2nd gen, follow the 3S power primer and get more HP then a 4th gen with less money spent in the end. And you cant really argue newer motor casue you can find 3rd gens with like.... 40K on em. Thats just being broken in! But, what ever u wana do.
[/quote]


OH!!! MY BAD! i forgot to mention that doc is getting the st215 for a steal! its a 1999, and its only $300 more that what a st185 set would cost me thats one reason why people dont like it and i understand that...

[playr158]

superiortradinginternational has a caldina 4th gen AUTOMATIC 3sgte for 3 grand + 200 shipping

[WannabeGT4]

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27219

The turbine housing and the exhaust manifold is one piece. The intake manifold is also different as it exits at a different angle. It also has Coil-On-Plug DLI, top feed injectors and completely different ECU compared to the generations before.

If Tweak can figure out the wiring and you don't mind finding an exhaust manifold for any turbo upgrades you should be ok with the Caldina engine. Parts may be a problem to find but a lot of it will be interchangeable with previous generations especialy the ST205.

[easternpiro1]

i doubt that i will be doing any turbo upgrades.... ok i may, but what about things like gaskets, plug wires, and things that usulally wear out on an engine? i should be ok in that respect right?

[WannabeGT4]

There will be no plug wires on this engine since it's distributorless. Gaskets from an ST205 will probably work for most of it but that's just the problem, no one knows for sure.

[easternpiro1]

There will be no plug wires on this engine since it's distributorless. Gaskets from an ST205 will probably work for most of it but that's just the problem, no one knows for sure.

hmmm...im nervous again now... but can u explain to me what it looks like? coil on DLI and top feed injectors...never seen a distributorless car, couldnt see it in the pics of a caldina clip i saw on ebay.

[CelicaB]

piro im not sure if you wanna listen to me (i mean what do i know) but uhh heres my 2 cents

Anyways all my lame joking aside the only thing now is deciding if your going to build the motor later. If your going to be happy with the 260 (i think thats what the ST215 puts out) and not going to be upgrading later (and tweak doesnt mind the wiring)then deffenatly go for it. However if your going to be tearing the motor down next winter to upgrade the internals, bigger turbo, headwork, standalone ECU all the good stuff then going with your basic 2nd or 3rd gen wouldnt hurt either.

But anyways no matter what route you go i personally think its gonna cost about the same to get the motor into the car whether it be the ST215 motor putting out 260 and you having to pay a little bit more for tweak to do the wiring. Or you get the basic 2nd gen and putting a few dollars toward bolt ons to get to about 260. (which is where deciding if you really wanna build the motor later comes in)

Either way i think your getting your 3s for a real good deal because of your patience (even though i know you want to feel 3s power in your car right away) and all of your searching -thats the most important part man

Whatever you decide to do good luck with it and i know youll love it
-Bryan

thats basically what went through my head when i picked my motor and everything and i gotta get in a good NC meet when im back down there

This post has been edited by CelicaB: Aug 24, 2006 - 8:59 PM

[3WayStunna]

didnt the forth gen 3sgte come with vvti?....or dual beams?

This post has been edited by 3WayStunna: Aug 24, 2006 - 9:01 PM

[easternpiro1]

piro im not sure if you wanna listen to me (i mean what do i know) but uhh heres my 2 cents

Anyways all my lame joking aside the only thing now is deciding if your going to build the motor later. If your going to be happy with the 260 (i think thats what the ST215 puts out) and not going to be upgrading later (and tweak doesnt mind the wiring)then deffenatly go for it. However if your going to be tearing the motor down next winter to upgrade the internals, bigger turbo, headwork, standalone ECU all the good stuff then going with your basic 2nd or 3rd gen wouldnt hurt either.

But anyways no matter what route you go i personally think its gonna cost about the same to get the motor into the car whether it be the ST215 motor putting out 260 and you having to pay a little bit more for tweak to do the wiring. Or you get the basic 2nd gen and putting a few dollars toward bolt ons to get to about 260. (which is where deciding if you really wanna build the motor later comes in)

Either way i think your getting your 3s for a real good deal because of your patience (even though i know you want to feel 3s power in your car right away) and all of your searching -thats the most important part man

Whatever you decide to do good luck with it and i know youll love it
-Bryan

thats basically what went through my head when i picked my motor and everything and i gotta get in a good NC meet when im back down there

of course i'll listen to ya brian! im sure that i will be happy with the 260 with only minor upgrades, im not trying to go crazy, im happy with something that can keep up with a slightly modded evo or subaru and that should be easy to obtain. i know that i may need to upgrade the turbo, but i really dont want anything too high in the 300s because its just asking for more problems, and thats the LAST thing i want. u know me... got things to SEE and people to DO. lol (no homo)

and yes u DO have to get back in nc!

[WannabeGT4]

There will be no plug wires on this engine since it's distributorless. Gaskets from an ST205 will probably work for most of it but that's just the problem, no one knows for sure.

hmmm...im nervous again now... but can u explain to me what it looks like? coil on DLI and top feed injectors...never seen a distributorless car, couldnt see it in the pics of a caldina clip i saw on ebay.

This thread has the best pics I could find of the Coil-On-Plug system... It's very much like what you find on sportbikes and alot of newer engines.
http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=83134

[easternpiro1]

didnt the forth gen 3sgte come with vvti?....or dual beams?

i read that it didnt...but there is alot of specualtion about the 4th gen that needs to be cleared up, guess im one of the guinea pigs lol...but i trust tweak, hes the man, he wouldnt just throw something in there without being sure of things down the road.

man...wannabe...i just read that thread. someone asked the same question i had about the parts issue, but it was in feb 2005...maybe some progress has been made? more knowledge?

This post has been edited by easternpiro1: Aug 24, 2006 - 9:39 PM

[brianforster]

man look how many people viewing this thread, its a hot thread.

i hope you do it, you have the advantage of paying doc to do it (i guess we all have the choice, im sayin its just nice to know that you are going to have someone who knows his **** working with ya)

maybe in the 4th generation they fixed the 3sgtes pickiness about ignition components, that would be sweet..

just do it dude, its gonnna be SWEET.

edit: i would talk to doc about doing standalone, since you have to pay him to do the wiring anyway it might be easier and only slightly more expensive to go standalone and youd be able to have doc in-house dyno and tune it

This post has been edited by brianforster: Aug 24, 2006 - 9:18 PM

[Dr_Tweak]

We went with the ST215 for a few reasons. For one, the supplier I went with had an ST185 and an ST215 in stock... no ST205. The ST215 was on special for only $300 more than the ST185, so I though, hey, for 35hp more, and an engine that's at LEAST 6 years newer, better turbo, MAP-sensored, etc, might as well go for it, so that's what I recommended to easternpiro.

The whole argument of "OMG LOL PArTs are GoInG to Be sO harD To FiND it's GonNa be a NiGtmAre LOL!!!11" is purely speculation. (Just for the record, I'm referring to threads in times past, not to anyone in this particular thread). There are a few things that are different from the USDM 3SGTEs that we know of. DLS ignition which means no coil, ignitor, or wires, different shaped intake manifold, and different exhaust manifold/turbo setup. Other than that, I can't see that Toyota would have made any changes to speak of when it comes to the timing belt, water pump, etc. It's STILL a 3SGTE, it's just a newer version of it.

And what a lot of people have said about the ST215 not being "worth the money" since you can get 260hp out of an ST185 with "a few bolt-ons" isn't really an issue here, since we only paid $300 more for this engine set. And it comes with a better turbo, larger injectors, and no pesky AFM, so it's got plenty of potential.

Lastly, the biggest obstacle to overcome with this swap is the wiring, and everyone is probably on-track saying that it's going to be quite a bit more difficult than a typical ST185 swap. Thankfully though, I'll be doing the wiring, so that's nothing to worry about!

Cheers!

This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Aug 24, 2006 - 9:44 PM