6-speed trannys???, anyone droppin 6-speed trannys into their car, or have... Options

[3WayStunna]

hmm, anywho i was just trying to support someone with the hopes of maybe doing something, not trying to incite anything else......but if ppl think these kind of threads are staretd by ppl who are just typing words, then oh wells.......i always take it as a perosn asking for an opinion on something, dont really care if they are or are not going to do something.....anyways, it would stil be nice to see a rwd celica, with a beams engine in it.....got me thinkin of things i could do to my other cars....

[InfamousChappy]

Yea I know its not just for "super" cars...I vaguely used "super" as an adjective. Sorrrry

There's a word that's not being used. Engineering. So those cars have it..They were engineered for it when they were just blue lines on paper. IF you want reengineer a gearbox so that it can hold six gears you go right on with it...and good luck. I dont have the brains to anything like that nor do I have that kind of money/time .So whats the point of arguing about that something that probably wont ever happen.




Yea I know its not just for "super" cars...I vaguely used "super" as an adjective. Sorrrry

There's a word that's not being used. Engineering. So those cars have it..They were engineered for it when they were just blue lines on paper. IF you want reengineer a gearbox so that it can hold six gears you go right on with it...and good luck. I dont have the brains to anything like that nor do I have that kind of money/time .So whats the point of arguing about that something that probably wont ever happen.

[Kwanza26]

hopes of maybe doing something... these kind of threads are staretd by ppl who are just typing words.......it would stil be nice to see a rwd celica, with a beams engine in it.....got me thinkin of things i could do to my other cars....

Those are the highlights of your response. In otherwords... "what if" scenario. Turn it into an "I'm gonna" scenario and explain how... then maybe you'll get some significant responses.

This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Nov 29, 2006 - 2:04 AM

[Kwanza26]

That makes no sense at all. Look at the S2000, Civic, RSX, 7th Gen Celica, new MR2 (SMT6 tranny), and a handfull of others. All with six speed transmissions (or at least available). It's not a matter of how many times you shift, it's a matter of gearing. With a stock motor (5S or 7A), sure, the Celica needs the steep gearing and final drive ratio as stock to keep it from being too much of a burden to get moving in traffic without impeding others. But, for some of us who do a lot of highway cruising or have upgraded to a 3S-GTE, we don't need that steep gearing. And personally, I HATE driving the celica on the highway for extended periods of time because at 80 MPH, turning 4K rpm's with the custom exhaust droning away is flat out tiring. It would be MUCH nicer to have the same 1-5 gears (or close) with a more overdriven 6th gear for those highway cruising period.

Six speed transmissions aren't just reserved for high power "super cars" like you think. The main reason the six speed came into prominence is the extra overdrive gear for improved fuel economy, be it on a 4, 6, 8, 10, or 12 cylinder engine.

*sigh*

Lemme explain a few things. A LOT of new cars are now coming with 6 speeds and 7 speeds... why? Sporty feel and fuel economy. The issue? Well... those trannies were DESIGNED for those engines... therefore the gearing is perfect (or damn near perfect). This topic talks about 'bolting' up a 6 speed... without any understanding of gearing and how it affects performance. Let me give you a good example of BAD BAD gearing. 7th gen Celica GTS. Potentially a 15 FLAT stock car... yet when mated to an older POORLY geared tranny (stock auto)... the car turns into a 17 second slug. 15 seconds versus 17 seconds is like... 5-7 car lengths. While potentially having a 6th gear can be done correctly... can anyone afford a custom gearset? Who wants to pay up for a custom tranny that's gonna cost almost as much as the car itself?

[lazzyboy121]

yet another noob post...............

[K-ESD]

yet another noob post...............

This is very disrespectful. n00bs, as you call them, need our guidance/support, not this kind of comment. If you don't have anything constructive to say, please keep your comments to yourself.

[Fastbird]

That makes no sense at all. Look at the S2000, Civic, RSX, 7th Gen Celica, new MR2 (SMT6 tranny), and a handfull of others. All with six speed transmissions (or at least available). It's not a matter of how many times you shift, it's a matter of gearing. With a stock motor (5S or 7A), sure, the Celica needs the steep gearing and final drive ratio as stock to keep it from being too much of a burden to get moving in traffic without impeding others. But, for some of us who do a lot of highway cruising or have upgraded to a 3S-GTE, we don't need that steep gearing. And personally, I HATE driving the celica on the highway for extended periods of time because at 80 MPH, turning 4K rpm's with the custom exhaust droning away is flat out tiring. It would be MUCH nicer to have the same 1-5 gears (or close) with a more overdriven 6th gear for those highway cruising period.

Six speed transmissions aren't just reserved for high power "super cars" like you think. The main reason the six speed came into prominence is the extra overdrive gear for improved fuel economy, be it on a 4, 6, 8, 10, or 12 cylinder engine.

*sigh*

Lemme explain a few things. A LOT of new cars are now coming with 6 speeds and 7 speeds... why? Sporty feel and fuel economy. The issue? Well... those trannies were DESIGNED for those engines... therefore the gearing is perfect (or damn near perfect). This topic talks about 'bolting' up a 6 speed... without any understanding of gearing and how it affects performance. Let me give you a good example of BAD BAD gearing. 7th gen Celica GTS. Potentially a 15 FLAT stock car... yet when mated to an older POORLY geared tranny (stock auto)... the car turns into a 17 second slug. 15 seconds versus 17 seconds is like... 5-7 car lengths. While potentially having a 6th gear can be done correctly... can anyone afford a custom gearset? Who wants to pay up for a custom tranny that's gonna cost almost as much as the car itself?

You don't have to explain anything to me. I fully realize what I said. What you missed was the fact that my rant was based on the fact that I'm running a 3S-GTE and have no need or desire to turn 4K RPM's on the highway and certainly don't need such steep gearing to get the car moving in a timely fashion now. Your statement is flawed also, and I'm going to step out of the Celica world and into the GM world for a second to say why: Take the 4th Gen 93-02 F-Body and the 92-96 LT1 C4 and 98+ C5 and C6 Corvette's. I own Two 93 F-Body's and a 99 C5 Vette so I speak from personal experience as well as loads of practical experience. Those cars mentioned, save for the 92-96 Vette (ZF6 6 Speed) run Borg Warner T-56 6 Speeds. The F-body's got 3.23 or 2.73 rear end gears in 93 and 3.42 rear end gears in 94-02 and the Vette's got 3.42 rear end gears in 97 to current. This is NOT optimal gearing for the car, this was specifically a way for gm to overdrive the car more and cut down on the gas guzzler taxes while at the same time providing a stronger transmission than what was previously available. If you've never ridden in any of the above stock and then with a set of 3.73, 3.90, or 4.10 gears out back, then you don't realize how low geared they really are from the factory. Stepping back into the celica/import world now.

I fully realize that a certain amount of engineering goes into why cars get six speeds, and will admit that the import world is more engineered because is HAS to be given the inability of some of the cars to get moving quickly enough. Not a bash, just a reality. Close gears and steep gearing/final drive ratio is an absolute necessity. But another flaw in your example above is when you used the example of an auto tranny. Too bad we're not talking auto's. I bet if you compared the gearing of the six speeds (i believe there was just a thread on here talking about a rare six speed from a Curren or something) you'd find that the gear ratio's are probably quite close and wouldn't harm acceleration as much as you'd think while still providing a more reasonable cruise gear. Given the Celica's relatively high final drive ratio with the 5 speed, moving to a six speed probably wouldn't have much of an impact at all. Sadly though, without some major engineering or a stroke of genius somewhere, we probably won't find out.

My point in making my orignal post was simply that for the motor swap guys, you could potentially increase fuel economy and reduce the engine speed at highway cruise without hurting acceleration (possibly increasing it because of a less steep 1st and 2nd gear allowing better power transfer to the ground via less torque multiplication from the lower gearing) and givng the car some longer legs for the top end (should the need arise) at the same time.

[Kwanza26]

You don't have to explain anything to me. I fully realize what I said. What you missed was the fact that my rant was based on the fact that I'm running a 3S-GTE and have no need or desire to turn 4K RPM's on the highway and certainly don't need such steep gearing to get the car moving in a timely fashion now. Your statement is flawed also, and I'm going to step out of the Celica world and into the GM world for a second to say why: Take the 4th Gen 93-02 F-Body and the 92-96 LT1 C4 and 98+ C5 and C6 Corvette's. I own Two 93 F-Body's and a 99 C5 Vette so I speak from personal experience as well as loads of practical experience. Those cars mentioned, save for the 92-96 Vette (ZF6 6 Speed) run Borg Warner T-56 6 Speeds. The F-body's got 3.23 or 2.73 rear end gears in 93 and 3.42 rear end gears in 94-02 and the Vette's got 3.42 rear end gears in 97 to current. This is NOT optimal gearing for the car, this was specifically a way for gm to overdrive the car more and cut down on the gas guzzler taxes while at the same time providing a stronger transmission than what was previously available. If you've never ridden in any of the above stock and then with a set of 3.73, 3.90, or 4.10 gears out back, then you don't realize how low geared they really are from the factory. Stepping back into the celica/import world now.

While that may be the case with Corvette and other big V8's... there's a flaw in your argument. You CANNOT compare muscle cars to imports... why? Muscle cars can run fine with taller gears... in many cases much faster with taller gears when compared to imports. TORQUE. Back to my example... the difference between a well matched 5 speed and a poorly matched 6 speed can be HUGE. GM understands that many Corvette buyers aren't gonna buy a corvette specifically to race... so the need for shorter sporty gearing that can hurt fuel economy isn't neccesary, so they have the taller finaldrives to attract the not so performance oriented buyers.

I fully realize that a certain amount of engineering goes into why cars get six speeds, and will admit that the import world is more engineered because is HAS to be given the inability of some of the cars to get moving quickly enough. Not a bash, just a reality. Close gears and steep gearing/final drive ratio is an absolute necessity. But another flaw in your example above is when you used the example of an auto tranny. Too bad we're not talking auto's.

Why is it flawed? We're talking about gearing... not whether a driver or tranny can perform shifts better. You're from the domestic world right? Which is preffered in a drag race?

I bet if you compared the gearing of the six speeds (i believe there was just a thread on here talking about a rare six speed from a Curren or something) you'd find that the gear ratio's are probably quite close and wouldn't harm acceleration as much as you'd think while still providing a more reasonable cruise gear. Given the Celica's relatively high final drive ratio with the 5 speed, moving to a six speed probably wouldn't have much of an impact at all. Sadly though, without some major engineering or a stroke of genius somewhere, we probably won't find out.

Unfortunately as myself and many others have pointed out OVER and OVER... there is ONLY one toyota 6 speed transaxle... mated to engines that both peak power near 8000 rpms. Besides... how often has someone come in here asking about 6 gears with even a remote idea of what gearing is?

My point in making my orignal post was simply that for the motor swap guys, you could potentially increase fuel economy and reduce the engine speed at highway cruise without hurting acceleration (possibly increasing it because of a less steep 1st and 2nd gear allowing better power transfer to the ground via less torque multiplication from the lower gearing) and givng the car some longer legs for the top end (should the need arise) at the same time.

This last part sounds like something muscle car guys would say. Just remember... we're talking 4 cylinders here... but as I've mentioned already... there are 5 speed trannies available that mate up to the 3SGTE that DO have taller final drives. The need for a 6th gear is purely asthetic...

[Fastbird]

While that may be the case with Corvette and other big V8's... there's a flaw in your argument. You CANNOT compare muscle cars to imports... why? Muscle cars can run fine with taller gears... in many cases much faster with taller gears when compared to imports. TORQUE. Back to my example... the difference between a well matched 5 speed and a poorly matched 6 speed can be HUGE. GM understands that many Corvette buyers aren't gonna buy a corvette specifically to race... so the need for shorter sporty gearing that can hurt fuel economy isn't neccesary, so they have the taller finaldrives to attract the not so performance oriented buyers.

I fully realize that which is why I mentioned in the next paragraph that I concede that the import engines need the taller gearing. But, my point with the v8 stuff was that even those are undergeared intentionally for economy reasons. They respond magnificently to steeper gears and feel like they should with them.

Why is it flawed? We're talking about gearing... not whether a driver or tranny can perform shifts better. You're from the domestic world right? Which is preffered in a drag race?

Auto's are preferred in drag racing for consistency, plain and simple. The flaw was that when comparing gearing you can't compare an auto to a manual because of how they operate. Auto's with the torque converter have a different torque multiplication effect from slippage than a manual does. It really makes a big difference.

Unfortunately as myself and many others have pointed out OVER and OVER... there is ONLY one toyota 6 speed transaxle... mated to engines that both peak power near 8000 rpms. Besides... how often has someone come in here asking about 6 gears with even a remote idea of what gearing is?

I wasn't aware of there only being 1 toyota 6 speed and had no clue that they were set up for high revving engines. Actually, in the thread I mentioned, I do remember seeing the gearing and thinking "man, that's really steep and really wouldn't accomplish what I'd want anyway." So I'll own up to not putting two and two together there.

My point in making my orignal post was simply that for the motor swap guys, you could potentially increase fuel economy and reduce the engine speed at highway cruise without hurting acceleration (possibly increasing it because of a less steep 1st and 2nd gear allowing better power transfer to the ground via less torque multiplication from the lower gearing) and givng the car some longer legs for the top end (should the need arise) at the same time.

------------------------
This last part sounds like something muscle car guys would say. Just remember... we're talking 4 cylinders here... but as I've mentioned already... there are 5 speed trannies available that mate up to the 3SGTE that DO have taller final drives. The need for a 6th gear is purely asthetic...

I left that original quote of mine above because I'm curious how that sounds like something a muscle car guy would say. If you haven't driven a 3S swapped 6GC with a 5 speed yet, come up and I'll let you drive mine and experience how almost utterly useless 1st gear is. You blink and you bounce off the rev limiter, it really goes by that quickly (not saying it's a bad thing cause it's dang fun, but it would benefit a little from holding on longer). Now, I do realize that there ARE 5 speeds that mate up to the 3S and have the taller gearing, but of those the only one I'm familiar with is the E153 and it's only good for a marginal difference that I can tell (although I do NOT know what the final drive ratio is with the LSD, the MR2 setup essentially). I wouldn't go so far as to call the need for a 6th gear purely aesthetic though. With the shorter gearing even in other 5 speeds, you have essentially mechanically limited the top speed of the car to your rev limiter in 5th gear. This is just a personal opinion that some may share with me, but I'd rather know that I'm not mechanically limited to a top speed and that I'm only limited by the power output and drag coefficient of the car. Texas mile or salt flats anyone???

You make marked points, no doubt. I think we're just looking at things in different perspectives is all. Cheers!

This post has been edited by Fastbird: Nov 29, 2006 - 10:51 AM

[Kwanza26]

You don't have to explain anything to me. I fully realize what I said. What you missed was the fact that my rant was based on the fact that I'm running a 3S-GTE and have no need or desire to turn 4K RPM's on the highway and certainly don't need such steep gearing to get the car moving in a timely fashion now. Your statement is flawed also, and I'm going to step out of the Celica world and into the GM world for a second to say why: Take the 4th Gen 93-02 F-Body and the 92-96 LT1 C4 and 98+ C5 and C6 Corvette's. I own Two 93 F-Body's and a 99 C5 Vette so I speak from personal experience as well as loads of practical experience. Those cars mentioned, save for the 92-96 Vette (ZF6 6 Speed) run Borg Warner T-56 6 Speeds. The F-body's got 3.23 or 2.73 rear end gears in 93 and 3.42 rear end gears in 94-02 and the Vette's got 3.42 rear end gears in 97 to current. This is NOT optimal gearing for the car, this was specifically a way for gm to overdrive the car more and cut down on the gas guzzler taxes while at the same time providing a stronger transmission than what was previously available. If you've never ridden in any of the above stock and then with a set of 3.73, 3.90, or 4.10 gears out back, then you don't realize how low geared they really are from the factory. Stepping back into the celica/import world now.

While that may be the case with Corvette and other big V8's... there's a flaw in your argument. You CANNOT compare muscle cars to imports... why? Muscle cars can run fine with taller gears... in many cases much faster with taller gears when compared to imports. TORQUE. Back to my example... the difference between a well matched 5 speed and a poorly matched 6 speed can be HUGE. GM understands that many Corvette buyers aren't gonna buy a corvette specifically to race... so the need for shorter sporty gearing that can hurt fuel economy isn't neccesary, so they have the taller finaldrives to attract the not so performance oriented buyers.

I fully realize that a certain amount of engineering goes into why cars get six speeds, and will admit that the import world is more engineered because is HAS to be given the inability of some of the cars to get moving quickly enough. Not a bash, just a reality. Close gears and steep gearing/final drive ratio is an absolute necessity. But another flaw in your example above is when you used the example of an auto tranny. Too bad we're not talking auto's.

Why is it flawed? We're talking about gearing... not whether a driver or tranny can perform shifts better. You're from the domestic world right? Which is preffered in a drag race?

I bet if you compared the gearing of the six speeds (i believe there was just a thread on here talking about a rare six speed from a Curren or something) you'd find that the gear ratio's are probably quite close and wouldn't harm acceleration as much as you'd think while still providing a more reasonable cruise gear. Given the Celica's relatively high final drive ratio with the 5 speed, moving to a six speed probably wouldn't have much of an impact at all. Sadly though, without some major engineering or a stroke of genius somewhere, we probably won't find out.

Unfortunately as myself and many others have pointed out OVER and OVER... there is ONLY one toyota 6 speed transaxle... mated to engines that both peak power near 8000 rpms. Besides... how often has someone come in here asking about 6 gears with even a remote idea of what gearing is?

My point in making my orignal post was simply that for the motor swap guys, you could potentially increase fuel economy and reduce the engine speed at highway cruise without hurting acceleration (possibly increasing it because of a less steep 1st and 2nd gear allowing better power transfer to the ground via less torque multiplication from the lower gearing) and givng the car some longer legs for the top end (should the need arise) at the same time.

This last part sounds like something muscle car guys would say. Just remember... we're talking 4 cylinders here... but as I've mentioned already... there are 5 speed trannies available that mate up to the 3SGTE that DO have taller final drives. The need for a 6th gear is purely asthetic...

[BLADDER_MASTER]

.

This post has been edited by BLADDER_MASTER: Nov 13, 2012 - 2:53 PM

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

The need for a 6th gear is purely asthetic...

Amen to that. Just buy a 6 speed shift knob tell all the chickies you've got a 6speed. Heck, why not considder reverse? Just say, "I've got a 6 geared transmission?" All the players will think you are the bomb yoe.

[baddisintegra]

6-speeds can be converted, and like previous posters have said, it would be for highway driving if done so, but there are other advantages.

first off if a 1uz v8 swapped into a IS can use be used with a 2jzge straight six tranny, then i believe its possible to mate the 6spd tranny onto 6gc motor. and on the other hand a 6spd tranny could do a world of wonders for 3sgte/3sge motor if the rite 6spd tranny was acquired.

i know for a fact that the tiburon/celica/maxima/sentra 6spd tranny's are all the same but differ in gear ratios. now some gear ratios would be more suitable for a N/A motor and really only one (the 04-06 spec-V) would do well under boost applications

to do the swap, maybe an adaptor plate along with a different bellhousings, master cylinder if the 6gc is cable, special moutning bracket for the tranny...maybe a couple other things as well

i've seen the 6spd tranny's being used for both n/a and boost applications on older engines for:

1. stronger transmission
2. better highway fuel mileage
3. there could be better clutch selections
4. also colud be less chance of thrust bearing failure because of less clamping force by clutch


now this is just my speculation on the swap of a 6spd tranny...i am not to familiar with the 5sfe/3sge/3sgte motors (as yet--i plan to pick up a 6gc in the next few weeks )

This post has been edited by baddisintegra: Nov 30, 2006 - 5:30 PM

[3WayStunna]

Hey KWANZA, before you try to jump down someones throat, realize i am not the original poster for this thread....im only supporting what someone may or may not due, in the hope s they may do it......and also dont pick my post apart and only quote one line or two line to make yourself "look" smarter...once again i am only trying to be a supporter of a person who might do something.....at the same time im sure that i said, that this post has given me some ideas as to what i might do to some of my cars, nothing more......ad to be honest, its flame happy ppl like you on this site that usually pushes ppl away from wanting to try new things, so please, back off....thank you and good luck to the original poster of this thread...

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

Hey KWANZA, before you try to jump down someones throat, realize i am not the original poster for this thread....im only supporting what someone may or may not due, in the hope s they may do it......and also dont pick my post apart and only quote one line or two line to make yourself "look" smarter...once again i am only trying to be a supporter of a person who might do something.....at the same time im sure that i said, that this post has given me some ideas as to what i might do to some of my cars, nothing more......ad to be honest, its flame happy ppl like you on this site that usually pushes ppl away from wanting to try new things, so please, back off....thank you and good luck to the original poster of this thread...

You've been here since June of 06, what can you really know about the history of this site, the knowledge of the members, and projects that do and don't come true. Yeah, we as a community need to push for the advancement of technology in/for the 6gc. New ideas are always great. But, guys like Kwanza know because they've done there own projects and have experience. There is practical and there are just fanciful ideas for what a 6gc could use most productively and cost efficiently. A 6 speed to a 5s,7s, or 3sgte is just not a great idea. I still think the 7afe holds the best potential with one, but it's still not worth it because it's so expensive. The 4age, 7age, and 3sge could maybe use a properly geared one.

[3WayStunna]

no offense but ive been on this site since early 05.....and i know well enough what ppl have done here and there......and btw, ive done my own little "projects" here and there, and dont really appreciate someone like kawanza picking apart one thread in a post, to suit his own little thread....anywho, i agree with you ti dosent make much sense to try something along the way of a 6spd, but reagardless, this guy could still go for it, actually make it work, or if not then he dosent....erhem, oh wells.....still, i see that i am not contributing much to this thread, so no worrie,s i wont be doing anymore posting.....peace

This post has been edited by 3WayStunna: Nov 30, 2006 - 6:32 PM

[SinisterWhisper]

There is a site floating around somewhere showing the 6spd from a 7th gen having its bellhousing swapped with a c52 to work on an A series motor. That I believe is the only cost effective way of getting a 6spd in a celica. However the problem with doing this is while Ive seen that it works I do not have any kind of instructions on how to do it and dont know what type of tools would be required.

[baddisintegra]

There is a site floating around somewhere showing the 6spd from a 7th gen having its bellhousing swapped with a c52 to work on an A series motor. That I believe is the only cost effective way of getting a 6spd in a celica. However the problem with doing this is while Ive seen that it works I do not have any kind of instructions on how to do it and dont know what type of tools would be required.

yeha like i said, the bellhousing, adaptor plate (if necessary), and mounts for the tranny would be the main things to accomplish...if you could somehow find that website, i know it would be truly appreciated here

[spke719]

guys some one on here already has a 3sgte motor with a 6 speed toyota tranny in it.

[baddisintegra]

which guy..share the secret