6-speed trannys???, anyone droppin 6-speed trannys into their car, or have... Options

[K-ESD]

there is a fine line between frankenstiening a car ala "monster garage" and the mix and match bolt ons. This is what seperates certain engine and tranny combos from the rest. What I mean is we (non-jessy james people) have to work with what FITS !!

If the tranny doesn't bolt to: (refering to only the 6th gen)
a)engines (3SGTE, 7AFE, 5SFE)
b)tranny mounts
c)axle set (right length, right splines+spline lenght)
d)compatible shifter cables

you can forget about it, you will not make it fit without extensive custom work and expensive custom parts. Go back to the drawing board and pick something else.

[baddisintegra]

there is a fine line between frankenstiening a car ala "monster garage" and the mix and match bolt ons. This is what seperates certain engine and tranny combos from the rest. What I mean is we (non-jessy james people) have to work with what FITS !!

If the tranny doesn't bolt to: (refering to only the 6th gen)
a)engines (3SGTE, 7AFE, 5SFE)
b)tranny mounts
c)axle set (right length, right splines+spline lenght)
d)compatible shifter cables

you can forget about it, you will not make it fit without extensive custom work and expensive custom parts. Go back to the drawing board and pick something else.

not nescessarily...for some this is pretty much easily accomplished once the foreground is set for them---the hardest thing honestly would be welding a mounting position(s) into the engine bay...even that can be had for mere bucks also.

once thats done its pretty much dropping basics on installing a tranny but with the addition of an adaptor plate if need be

[Fastbird]

The problem is that when using a bell-housing adapter plate, you run the risk of tne input shaft not seating all the way into the clutch assembly. You'd probably need a custom length input shaft which is going to cost you probably more than the tranny is worth. If you have the money, go for it. But like stated above, for 99.9% of people if it doesn't fit it's not going to be worth the hassle.

[97lestyousay]

has anyone dropped a 6-speed into their celica or if not can you??? if so on either, how much does it cost and where do i find it???

this guy

This post has been edited by 97lestyousay: Nov 30, 2006 - 11:15 PM

[K-ESD]

there is a fine line between frankenstiening a car ala "monster garage" and the mix and match bolt ons. This is what seperates certain engine and tranny combos from the rest. What I mean is we (non-jessy james people) have to work with what FITS !!

If the tranny doesn't bolt to: (refering to only the 6th gen)
a)engines (3SGTE, 7AFE, 5SFE)
b)tranny mounts
c)axle set (right length, right splines+spline lenght)
d)compatible shifter cables

you can forget about it, you will not make it fit without extensive custom work and expensive custom parts. Go back to the drawing board and pick something else.

not nescessarily...for some this is pretty much easily accomplished once the foreground is set for them---the hardest thing honestly would be welding a mounting position(s) into the engine bay...even that can be had for mere bucks also.

once thats done its pretty much dropping basics on installing a tranny but with the addition of an adaptor plate if need be

if you think it's so easy, i think you should try it.
if you think an "adaptor plate" is the solution and it will work then easily weld in some mounts, all you're missing is a set of axles and shifter cables

seriously tho, try it and come back to us with results. I'm all about new things in the Celica

[Kwanza26]

Auto's are preferred in drag racing for consistency, plain and simple. The flaw was that when comparing gearing you can't compare an auto to a manual because of how they operate. Auto's with the torque converter have a different torque multiplication effect from slippage than a manual does. It really makes a big difference.

... but... I'm not comparing how they operate or even how they shift. I'm comparing gearing. Too tall of gearing drops an engine out of the powerband... too short of gearing negates low-midrange powerband.

My point in making my orignal post was simply that for the motor swap guys, you could potentially increase fuel economy and reduce the engine speed at highway cruise without hurting acceleration (possibly increasing it because of a less steep 1st and 2nd gear allowing better power transfer to the ground via less torque multiplication from the lower gearing) and givng the car some longer legs for the top end (should the need arise) at the same time.
------------------------

I left that original quote of mine above because I'm curious how that sounds like something a muscle car guy would say. If you haven't driven a 3S swapped 6GC with a 5 speed yet, come up and I'll let you drive mine and experience how almost utterly useless 1st gear is. You blink and you bounce off the rev limiter, it really goes by that quickly (not saying it's a bad thing cause it's dang fun, but it would benefit a little from holding on longer). Now, I do realize that there ARE 5 speeds that mate up to the 3S and have the taller gearing, but of those the only one I'm familiar with is the E153 and it's only good for a marginal difference that I can tell (although I do NOT know what the final drive ratio is with the LSD, the MR2 setup essentially). I wouldn't go so far as to call the need for a 6th gear purely aesthetic though. With the shorter gearing even in other 5 speeds, you have essentially mechanically limited the top speed of the car to your rev limiter in 5th gear. This is just a personal opinion that some may share with me, but I'd rather know that I'm not mechanically limited to a top speed and that I'm only limited by the power output and drag coefficient of the car. Texas mile or salt flats anyone???

You make marked points, no doubt. I think we're just looking at things in different perspectives is all. Cheers!

I've driven plenty of all... not specifically a 6th gen... But a 5th, 4th and more MR2 turbos than I can count. I say it sounds like something muscle car guys say because one... in the import world... if you're swapped... fuel economy typically isn't a worry. Gearing alone is gonna improve fuel economy by much, cause if you look at the fuel curves... the difference isn't that big between a few hundred rpms. I've said this before also... if you're worried about fuel economy... turn down the boost and drive like an old lady...

A few notes on trannies... The Camry/Solara e153 does have a taller final drive... should drop about 500 rpms off 5th gear cruise... but you're gonna have to rediff the bastard for LSD. The S51 from the Camry and S52 from older Celicas both too have taller final drives... and taller overall gearing in the S51. There are a few options out there if you're seriously worried about gearing.

[Kwanza26]

6-speeds can be converted, and like previous posters have said, it would be for highway driving if done so, but there are other advantages.

first off if a 1uz v8 swapped into a IS can use be used with a 2jzge straight six tranny, then i believe its possible to mate the 6spd tranny onto 6gc motor. and on the other hand a 6spd tranny could do a world of wonders for 3sgte/3sge motor if the rite 6spd tranny was acquired.

What sort of wonders? Having six gears doesn't make a car magically faster. ALSO... you can't compare RWD trannies to FWD trannies. Why? Toyota has been using the same FWD trannies for the better part of 20 years.

i know for a fact that the tiburon/celica/maxima/sentra 6spd tranny's are all the same but differ in gear ratios. now some gear ratios would be more suitable for a N/A motor and really only one (the 04-06 spec-V) would do well under boost applications

A FACT!? really? Where? Where does it say Toyota, Hyundai, and Nissan all use the same 6 speed tranny?

to do the swap, maybe an adaptor plate along with a different bellhousings, master cylinder if the 6gc is cable, special moutning bracket for the tranny...maybe a couple other things as well

very technically sound advice here.

i've seen the 6spd tranny's being used for both n/a and boost applications on older engines for:

1. stronger transmission
2. better highway fuel mileage
3. there could be better clutch selections
4. also colud be less chance of thrust bearing failure because of less clamping force by clutch

now this is just my speculation on the swap of a 6spd tranny...i am not to familiar with the 5sfe/3sge/3sgte motors (as yet--i plan to pick up a 6gc in the next few weeks )

Insightful!

Ok... seriously now... if you don't know these cars... just stop right there. Do research and come back when you're ready. You gotta read the posts before you make assumptions like these. There are OBVIOUSLY smarter more experienced guys chiming in here... so what makes you... a guy who is "speculating" and "not familiar" qualified?

[Kwanza26]

Hey KWANZA, before you try to jump down someones throat, realize i am not the original poster for this thread....im only supporting what someone may or may not due, in the hope s they may do it......and also dont pick my post apart and only quote one line or two line to make yourself "look" smarter...once again i am only trying to be a supporter of a person who might do something.....at the same time im sure that i said, that this post has given me some ideas as to what i might do to some of my cars, nothing more......ad to be honest, its flame happy ppl like you on this site that usually pushes ppl away from wanting to try new things, so please, back off....thank you and good luck to the original poster of this thread...

Sorry... but I thought you had your flame suit on...

[K-ESD]

there is a fine line between frankenstiening a car ala "monster garage" and the mix and match bolt ons. This is what seperates certain engine and tranny combos from the rest. What I mean is we (non-jessy james people) have to work with what FITS !!

If the tranny doesn't bolt to: (refering to only the 6th gen)
a)engines (3SGTE, 7AFE, 5SFE)
b)tranny mounts
c)axle set (right length, right splines+spline lenght)
d)compatible shifter cables

you can forget about it, you will not make it fit without extensive custom work and expensive custom parts. Go back to the drawing board and pick something else.

not nescessarily...for some this is pretty much easily accomplished once the foreground is set for them---the hardest thing honestly would be welding a mounting position(s) into the engine bay...even that can be had for mere bucks also.

once thats done its pretty much dropping basics on installing a tranny but with the addition of an adaptor plate if need be

reply revisited

this is a bellhousing



it cannot be swapped out for annother one, it is part of the transmission casing
an adaptor plate cannot be used as previously discussed

The problem is that when using a bell-housing adapter plate, you run the risk of tne input shaft not seating all the way into the clutch assembly. You'd probably need a custom length input shaft which is going to cost you probably more than the tranny is worth. If you have the money, go for it. But like stated above, for 99.9% of people if it doesn't fit it's not going to be worth the hassle.

and you're still missing a mega critical part, a set of compatible axles


and shifter cables

so.... what you said is just jibber, go back to the drawing board, no offense intended

[baddisintegra]

What sort of wonders? Having six gears doesn't make a car magically faster. ALSO... you can't compare RWD trannies to FWD trannies. Why? Toyota has been using the same FWD trannies for the better part of 20 years.

well thats just goes to tell you why fix something that isnt broke...and the wonders a 6spd tranny can do:

-7gen celica/matrix tranny--good for n/a applications
-tiburon tranny--good for n/a appl
-05 maxima hlsd tranny--good nor n/a appl
-04-06 specV tranny--good for boost (almost identical gear ratios to EVO MR)

i'll post the gear ratios in another reply

A FACT!? really? Where? Where does it say Toyota, Hyundai, and Nissan all use the same 6 speed tranny?

well i am still on the verge of getting pictures to prove my claim, but i know (from the nissan world) that these tranny's were all able to fit to the sr20 fwd engine w/out adaptor plates and also on various engines--both n/a and boost

very technically sound advice here

well its not brain surgery, its just takes a little knowledge and know how around an engine bay--i am not able to give exact discriptions to actually donig this yet, but i gave the basics--i knowits not good enough information to do the swap rite now, but some people can acquire a feel for the swap from basics

Insightful!

Ok... seriously now... if you don't know these cars... just stop right there. Do research and come back when you're ready. You gotta read the posts before you make assumptions like these. There are OBVIOUSLY smarter more experienced guys chiming in here... so what makes you... a guy who is "speculating" and "not familiar" qualified?

well i have been around toyota's for a little while, mostly 2jz's/7m's--i have never had the oppurtunity to actually sit and study the vehicle as i did others...but that doesnt stop me from knowing what is common for vehicles in general--if a v6 1mz can be fitted into a 6gc that means there is enough room to play in the engine--its why i've made my assumptions---whether they are wrong or rite is still yet to be proven, but as of now you or no one else on this board can say that this swap cant be done...a few threads up has a member with a 6spd box mated to a 3sge--just waiting to see which six speed it actually is

This post has been edited by baddisintegra: Dec 1, 2006 - 5:40 PM

[baddisintegra]

Spec-v 02-03 (n/a)

1 : 3.417:1______36.3 _____1-2 4551
2 : 1.944:1______63.7______2-3 5176
3 : 1.258:1______98.6______3-4 6022
4 : 0.947:1______130.9_____4-5 6530
5 : 0.773:1______160.4_____5-6 6520
6 : 0.630:1______196.8
Final drive : 4.429:1
2439rpm @ 60mph

spec v 04-06 (boost)

1st: 3.153_______42.1_______1-2 4932
2nd: 1.944_______68.3_______2-3 5728
3rd: 1.392 _______95.4_______3-4 6063
4th: 1.055_______125.9______4-5 6134
5th: 0.809 _______164.2______5-6 6655
6th: 0.673_______197.4
Reverse: 3.002
Final drive 4.133
2431rpm @ 60mph

05 Maxima HLSD (n/a)

1st 3.153 = 13.031___42.36mph
2nd 1.944 = 8.034____68.71
3rd 1.392 = 5.753____95.95
4th 1.055 = 4.360____126.6
5th 0.809 = 3.343____165.13
6th 0.630 = 2.604____211.98
Reverse 3.002
Final Gear 4.133_______2264rpm @ 60 mph

Toyota Celica GTS/ Matrix XRS (n/a)

1 : 3.166:1 = 14.333____38.51mph__5181rpm
2 : 2.050:1 = 9.284_____59.46_____5779
3 : 1.481:1 = 6.707_____82.30_____6299
4 : 1.166:1 = 5.281_____104.53____6283
5 : 0.916:1 = 4.148_____133.08____6522
6 : 0.725:1 = 3.382_____163.22
Final drive : 4.529:1________2941rpm @ 60 mph

Tibiron gear ratios (n/a)

1. 3.153 = 13.961_____39.54mph___4932
2. 1.944 = 8.608______64.13______5485
3. 1.333 = 5.902______93.53______6331
4. 1.055 = 4.671______118.18_____6499
5. 0.857 = 3.795______145.46_____6570
6. 0.704 = 3.117______177.10
Reverse 3.002
Final gear ratio 4.428_______2711mph @ 60 mph

[baddisintegra]

reply revisited

this is a bellhousing



it cannot be swapped out for annother one, it is part of the transmission casing
an adaptor plate cannot be used as previously discussed

The problem is that when using a bell-housing adapter plate, you run the risk of tne input shaft not seating all the way into the clutch assembly. You'd probably need a custom length input shaft which is going to cost you probably more than the tranny is worth. If you have the money, go for it. But like stated above, for 99.9% of people if it doesn't fit it's not going to be worth the hassle.


and you're still missing a mega critical part, a set of compatible axles


and shifter cables

so.... what you said is just jibber, go back to the drawing board, no offense intended

bellhousings can be replaced...i know a specV bellhousing is $300 in cost and like i said earlier an adaptor plate may not be needed

axles--dont know if the axles from a 7gc would work as of yet....that still is to be determined but axles can be designed and made to fit (raxles is a company that does it)

shifter cables/shift linkage--i havent seen a problem with to the swap with the sr20's and thats on a similar size motor and also in a smaller chassis--so i doubt the linkage would play a problem, u may also need to use the shifter as well from the gts to complete

This post has been edited by baddisintegra: Dec 1, 2006 - 6:09 PM

[K-ESD]

no, 7th gen axles don't fit, diffrent length, splines and spindels, it's from a diffrent chassis.

replacing the bellhousing would involve rebuilding the whole transmission and for which bellhousing?? a specV?
since when does a nissan sentra specV transmission bellhousing fit a S series or E series toyota transmission? wtf???

custom axles are very expensive - therefor makes this conversion a waste of cash (because as discussed, there are better things to do with excessive money).

You're just spitting out useless information, you barely know anything about the 6GC !!
You don't have any valid information or anything to back up what you say. Please stop this "because this fits in this car and i can do that, then it should be the same in this car" non-sense.


Sorry for being rude but i'm doing this for the comunity, for the sake of good information.

p.s. it's not a 1MZFE, it's a 3MZFE that has been fitted in the 6GC, it's mine !

[Fastbird]

Auto's are preferred in drag racing for consistency, plain and simple. The flaw was that when comparing gearing you can't compare an auto to a manual because of how they operate. Auto's with the torque converter have a different torque multiplication effect from slippage than a manual does. It really makes a big difference.

... but... I'm not comparing how they operate or even how they shift. I'm comparing gearing. Too tall of gearing drops an engine out of the powerband... too short of gearing negates low-midrange powerband.

There's soooo much more to it than just transmission gearing though. Tire heigh and differential gearing (Ok, not so much on the transaxle setups) being the two easiest ways to counteract less than optimal transmission gearing. This is actually the most common way to go about it because it's just not practical to have custom gears made for a tranny. My fuel economy concern isn't that big, but my concern (and primarily annoyance) is with cruising at 4K RPM on the highway for extended periods of time. I just don't like it, and with the custom exhaust, it's a little obnoxious after a while.

reply revisited
and you're still missing a mega critical part, a set of compatible axles


and shifter cables

so.... what you said is just jibber, go back to the drawing board, no offense intended

That is just amusing. You tell me to go back to the drawing board when you're talking about parts to finish the installation, and I'm talking about parts needed to even install the thing!! How is needing a custom length input shaft jibberish is the custom axles and shifter cables won't do anything because the tranny won't engage the clutch?? Thanks for the laugh though.

Oh, and FYI, bellhousings are interchangeable. The bellhousing is not an integral part of the transmission casing and is simply bolted on in most cases.

[K-ESD]

That is just amusing. You tell me to go back to the drawing board when you're talking about parts to finish the installation, and I'm talking about parts needed to even install the thing!! How is needing a custom length input shaft jibberish is the custom axles and shifter cables won't do anything because the tranny won't engage the clutch?? Thanks for the laugh though.

no no, what is amusing is I was backing up the thing about the input shaft using your quote and you think i was talking to you.

go back and read again

ok, now i'm quoting you and talking to you

Oh, and FYI, bellhousings are interchangeable. The bellhousing is not an integral part of the transmission casing and is simply bolted on in most cases.

ok, that may or may not be true for a C160 (the 4AGE black top tranny). I never seen one, however I have a E-153 and a S54 and the bellhousing is as in the pict, part of the gearbox. That being said, we are still going nowhere. Lets pretend a bellhousing can be swapped out on a C160, which bellhousing fits the S block and bolts to a C160? Thats the question we need to find the answer to !! No sense in arguing "yeah this can be done to make it work" without real parts with real results. Lets just work together and GET information, not sh!) information (aka bullsh!). Lets hit the european corolla forums !!

(there we will most likely find out if the bellhousing is a bolt-on deal or not)

This post has been edited by K-ESD: Dec 1, 2006 - 7:56 PM

[Kwanza26]

well thats just goes to tell you why fix something that isnt broke...and the wonders a 6spd tranny can do:

-7gen celica/matrix tranny--good for n/a applications
-tiburon tranny--good for n/a appl
-05 maxima hlsd tranny--good nor n/a appl
-04-06 specV tranny--good for boost (almost identical gear ratios to EVO MR)

i'll post the gear ratios in another reply

That's not what we're talking about here. We're not talking about "OTHER" cars and their 6 speed trannies... we're talking about reasoning behind wanting to put a 6 speed into a 6th Gen Celica and what options are available.

well i am still on the verge of getting pictures to prove my claim, but i know (from the nissan world) that these tranny's were all able to fit to the sr20 fwd engine w/out adaptor plates and also on various engines--both n/a and boost

Prove your claim by listing tranny codes. You're not about to tell me I can pick and choose whatever brand 6 speed tranny and just 'bolt-on' with an adaptor plate. If that's what you're telling me... well... you need to go back to school.

well its not brain surgery, its just takes a little knowledge and know how around an engine bay--i am not able to give exact discriptions to actually donig this yet, but i gave the basics--i knowits not good enough information to do the swap rite now, but some people can acquire a feel for the swap from basics

Note my sarcasm. You're basically saying you don't know and are not sure... but it can be done! Well... yeah... but we're not talking about whether or not it can/cannot be done. We're talking about whether it's worthwhile and HOW and WHAT it needs to be done.

well i have been around toyota's for a little while, mostly 2jz's/7m's--i have never had the oppurtunity to actually sit and study the vehicle as i did others...but that doesnt stop me from knowing what is common for vehicles in general--if a v6 1mz can be fitted into a 6gc that means there is enough room to play in the engine--its why i've made my assumptions---whether they are wrong or rite is still yet to be proven, but as of now you or no one else on this board can say that this swap cant be done...a few threads up has a member with a 6spd box mated to a 3sge--just waiting to see which six speed it actually is

Hahaha... ok... ok... I give up. It's useless to knock sense into someone who just doesn't understand. First off... that picture posted was a 4AGE blacktop 20V... and it came STOCK with that 6 speed tranny. THERE ARE NO STOCK FWD 6 SPEED TRANNIES FOR THE S SERIES MOTORS! PERIOD! The MZ series can be fitted because they share the same tranny as the 3S series... in turn mounts and axles are similar enough to NOT be a headache. Your assumptions have already been PROVEN wrong. You may not think so... but do a search!

Spec-v 02-03 (n/a)

1 : 3.417:1______36.3 _____1-2 4551
2 : 1.944:1______63.7______2-3 5176
3 : 1.258:1______98.6______3-4 6022
4 : 0.947:1______130.9_____4-5 6530
5 : 0.773:1______160.4_____5-6 6520
6 : 0.630:1______196.8
Final drive : 4.429:1
2439rpm @ 60mph

spec v 04-06 (boost)

1st: 3.153_______42.1_______1-2 4932
2nd: 1.944_______68.3_______2-3 5728
3rd: 1.392 _______95.4_______3-4 6063
4th: 1.055_______125.9______4-5 6134
5th: 0.809 _______164.2______5-6 6655
6th: 0.673_______197.4
Reverse: 3.002
Final drive 4.133
2431rpm @ 60mph

05 Maxima HLSD (n/a)

1st 3.153 = 13.031___42.36mph
2nd 1.944 = 8.034____68.71
3rd 1.392 = 5.753____95.95
4th 1.055 = 4.360____126.6
5th 0.809 = 3.343____165.13
6th 0.630 = 2.604____211.98
Reverse 3.002
Final Gear 4.133_______2264rpm @ 60 mph

Toyota Celica GTS/ Matrix XRS (n/a)

1 : 3.166:1 = 14.333____38.51mph__5181rpm
2 : 2.050:1 = 9.284_____59.46_____5779
3 : 1.481:1 = 6.707_____82.30_____6299
4 : 1.166:1 = 5.281_____104.53____6283
5 : 0.916:1 = 4.148_____133.08____6522
6 : 0.725:1 = 3.382_____163.22
Final drive : 4.529:1________2941rpm @ 60 mph

Tibiron gear ratios (n/a)

1. 3.153 = 13.961_____39.54mph___4932
2. 1.944 = 8.608______64.13______5485
3. 1.333 = 5.902______93.53______6331
4. 1.055 = 4.671______118.18_____6499
5. 0.857 = 3.795______145.46_____6570
6. 0.704 = 3.117______177.10
Reverse 3.002
Final gear ratio 4.428_______2711mph @ 60 mph

Wanna know a secret? ALL CARS HAVE GEAR RATIOS!

Posting that a car with 6 gears actually has 6 gears is pointless.

[97lestyousay]

I would like Kwanzas opinion on the black top with the 6 sp.
Right now a black top is my top pick for a swap and was curious
if there would be an advantage to a 6 spd over a 5.

[Kwanza26]

I would like Kwanzas opinion on the black top with the 6 sp.
Right now a black top is my top pick for a swap and was curious
if there would be an advantage to a 6 spd over a 5.

In this specific case... there isn't any real huge advantage... but a 6 speed gets you shorter gears which can help with acceleration. The negative side... 20V's are pretty inconsistant motors. Some blacktops are dyno beasts putting down 140-150 whp... while others barely break 120-130whp.

[Fastbird]

no no, what is amusing is I was backing up the thing about the input shaft using your quote and you think i was talking to you.

go back and read again

My bad man. I looked at it the wrong way. I see what you were saying now. I owe ya one.

[K-ESD]

no no, what is amusing is I was backing up the thing about the input shaft using your quote and you think i was talking to you.

go back and read again

My bad man. I looked at it the wrong way. I see what you were saying now. I owe ya one.

it's cool