3SGTE questions, really need a faq on this! Options

[Uppitycracker]

Ok well I used to come to this site alot because I really like the toyota celica. As of right now I still own my first car, a mazda mx-3, well Im sick of it, its going to cost me mega $$ to get it where I want it. So Im going to get a celica for the fall and do a swap hopefully over the winter. So Ive searched trying to find some straight forward info on this swap and there really isnt.

So far all Ive gethered is you need a wiring harness, also and ecu and IM is on everyones list. Ill be ordering a complete engine which includes the ecu and hopefully the harness, Ill ask before I order. Do to ontario law i wont need the IM since my car can be classified as a hotrod and tested under 1980's emmision standards.

So heres my question, when I order this engine is that that? Will it drop right in and just adopt all my old parts, or will I need things to make it work? It comes from a awd car, correct? So what does this imply for a fwd car? So please all the info you could give me would be great, a shopping list of EVERY part needed or recomended would be great. I would also suggest adding a walk through of the swap to a faq section.

Thanks alot!
Timothy Dawson

[Kwanza]

QUOTE (Uppitycracker @ Jul 12, 2003 - 10:31 AM)

So heres my question, when I order this engine is that that? Will it drop right in and just adopt all my old parts, or will I need things to make it work? It comes from a awd car, correct? So what does this imply for a fwd car? So please all the info you could give me would be great, a shopping list of EVERY part needed or recomended would be great. I would also suggest adding a walk through of the swap to a faq section. Thanks alot! Timothy Dawson

No... Just the engine, harness, and ECU might be enough to get you running, but then it'll also add a ton of custom work. What you want to do is buy an entire clip. Basically the cockpit forward. That's the only way you'll get every part you need, from mounts, to all of the nessesary hardware needed for a true complete swap. The parts you can recycle, meaning use again from the car you're swaping to, depending on the car, you can use a lot of the parts. If it's a GT or GTS (canadian model) then you can use the tranny, axels, and other major components, mounts, etc. If it's an ST, you'll need to get a FWD tranny either from an MR-2, Solara, or a Celica GT, and then you'll have to have custom axels made, or use the GT axels, if the they fit the tranny. You will not be able to use the awd tranny... if the 3sgte comes out of a GT-4 (alltrac). There's some other stuff too, but I'm brain freeze'd right now, so I'll let someone else complete the list... ;]

[Supersprynt]

Welcome to the site Tim - almost every question you'll ask can be answered in some fashion from the site or from someone on the site. Another good website to check out is celica.net. Its not as specific as its ALL celica's, but theres alot of good info there. But this is where the real deal is.

As Kwanza said, it depends on what model Celica u'll start with. Its more work and money doing the ST than the GT cuz of what was already listed. And when u think custom, think wow im going to have to figure something out custom. Problem solving is a must, im finishing my swap and right now im trying to figure out just the exhaust. Re-wiring the ecu and the relays is going to be the biggest b*tch of them all, and is really what takes the longest.

Other than that look around and use the search button cuz alot of questions have been asked and answered in the past and you might find what u are looking for in past posts. Good luck.

[Uppitycracker]

Hey thanks alot guys, ya i know all about the search function, my eyes just got tired from reading post after post about wiring harnesses":) When I buy a Celica it WILL BE a GT I know all about the different engines and what not. It was the same deal with my MX-3, depending on the model you had different bolt in swaps to choose, either 4cyl or v6. So I guess I will read into the re-wiring more, since I have a guy from a shop I want to do it for me I really need to get him that info before he agrees to do it. I hope its nothing to extreme, any schematics around this page? But anyways I think I should worry more about getting the car first then the engine I want in it!":P The part Im excited about is the fact its going to be cheaper then the MX-3 (klze) swap.

So lets recap, We'll pretend I have a GT, That sucker bolts right in to my stuff, I need a new harness to adapt the new ecu? Then on top of that rewire the relays? Man i wish i knew more about cars":P Ill search around somemore. THanks again guys for the help, mush more receptive then the guys at mx-3.com.

[kuya1284]

QUOTE (Uppitycracker @ Jul 12, 2003 - 10:31 AM)

So Ive searched trying to find some straight forward info on this swap and there really isnt.

Not trying to be a dick here, but I don't think you've searched hard enough. There are many people (including myself) that have discussed this many times on many message boards. If you scrolled down a little bit in this particular section of the board, you have have noticed this following thread:

is this everything i need to do the swap?

At that's just for starters. With a project of this magnitude, you WILL need to do some digging because not everyone's projects will turn out the same way. You may run into snags here and there, which is a good time for you to come back here and ask questions. However, for the basics, I honestly feel that you should do some digging. The information is out there, you'll just have to look harder. If you are unable to do something this simple, then I don't know if you'll be ready for doing a swap. Let me start you off in the right direction tho:

1. Use search engines. You'll be surprised with what comes up.
2. Use the search feature of a message board.
3. Here are links to sites that already have information on this, in addition to this board:

- www.toyotacelicaonline.com
- www.celica.net
- www.toyotacelicaweb.com
- www.alltrac.net
- www.topshelfracing.com

Now these are just some sites that have discussed this subject *numerous* times. Just dig, and you'll find. Nevertheless, do not be afraid to ask questions once you get started on this project. We are here to help, but I would highly recommend that you take the initial steps at finding the basic information. This will prove to *yourself* that you are ready to take on this massive-beast-of-a-project.

-Ray

[kuya1284]

One last thing, don't expect this project to be a SIMPLE bolt on... It WILL require a lot of effort on your part.

[Uppitycracker]

hey thanks for the additional info, this is just new territory for me so Im just trying to read and absorb as much as i can then ask questions about it, the thread is here now so i might aswell post my information progress.

from what ive been told above I wont need much to get it atleast running. i wont need any emmision mods so no USDM parts, I will buy new plugs, belts and so on, which I will address closer to the swap as too were i can get this stuff. Im just confused on the whole rewiring part. Sorry for the more questions I know they may be answered somewhere else, but lets say I get that new wiring harness, and its all plugged up, will the car drive atleast? would it be hard for a toyota technician to do the rest of the wiring? or will that cost me an arm and a leg? My problem is I dont know much about car electrical systems, is the harness to adapt the engine to the ecu, or the ecu to the car, or the engine to the car and ecu? ill just keep searching.

This post has been edited by Uppitycracker: Jul 12, 2003 - 6:19 PM

[Uppitycracker]

QUOTE (kuya1284 @ Jul 12, 2003 - 3:13 PM)

One last thing, don't expect this project to be a SIMPLE bolt on... It WILL require a lot of effort on your part.

Ill tell you what I expect and you can bring me into reallity, I will buy a GT probably 94, in the fall/winter buy all the parts I will need, harness, plugs, wires, fluids, act clutch?, buy the 3sgte engine complete, so it comes with ecu and tranny, which i cant use because its a awd tranny right? So I get it delivered to this mechanics place where he is going to do it on the side to save me money. So he lifts out the old engine, takes the parts of my old engine puting them on the new engine, puts the new belts plugs and what not on. Lowers it back in, hooks up the tranny tops off the fluids and we are off to the races (not litterally). BUT from what Im reading I will need to rewire some things. Drill a new hole for the harness or extend it? which is recomended?

If I get the engine in say quebec I think I will take a trip up there and pick out my engine finding the cleanest newest one I can find, with lowest m.km on it. I think that can eliminate extra expense as far as water pump and other parts are concerned.

Another thing, thse are the same series engine right? The 3sgte is just a jspec tc version? So all parts will swap over right?

[Teyaku]

QUOTE (kuya1284 @ Jul 12, 2003 - 3:12 PM)

QUOTE (Uppitycracker @ Jul 12, 2003 - 10:31 AM) So Ive searched trying to find some straight forward info on this swap and there really isnt. Not trying to be a dick here, but I don't think you've searched hard enough. There are many people (including myself) that have discussed this many times on many message boards. If you scrolled down a little bit in this particular section of the board, you have have noticed this following thread: is this everything i need to do the swap? At that's just for starters. With a project of this magnitude, you WILL need to do some digging because not everyone's projects will turn out the same way. You may run into snags here and there, which is a good time for you to come back here and ask questions. However, for the basics, I honestly feel that you should do some digging. The information is out there, you'll just have to look harder. If you are unable to do something this simple, then I don't know if you'll be ready for doing a swap. Let me start you off in the right direction tho: 1. Use search engines. You'll be surprised with what comes up. 2. Use the search feature of a message board. 3. Here are links to sites that already have information on this, in addition to this board: - www.toyotacelicaonline.com - www.celica.net - www.toyotacelicaweb.com - www.alltrac.net - www.topshelfracing.com Now these are just some sites that have discussed this subject *numerous* times. Just dig, and you'll find. Nevertheless, do not be afraid to ask questions once you get started on this project. We are here to help, but I would highly recommend that you take the initial steps at finding the basic information. This will prove to *yourself* that you are ready to take on this massive-beast-of-a-project. -Ray

Hey Ray how's the car?

BTW to the topic starter...you need to search more man...I didn't read half that **** cuz I know what it is you were going to ask. Same **** everyone asks...they just don't want to search anymore

[Uppitycracker]

Dude I searched and the information is scetchy and not conclusive, one guy will say yes you need a new tranny, the next guy will say the stock tranny can take 400hp. One guy will say you can drop it right in, next guy you need new custom axles, you getting my point for a beginner in celiceas let alone cars this is very confusing, Im trying to learn but with all this contradictory information floating around its pretty hard, thats what faqs are good for!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for the help anyway, i know how it can be seeing the same topics over and over

This post has been edited by Uppitycracker: Jul 12, 2003 - 9:30 PM

[Teyaku]

QUOTE (Uppitycracker @ Jul 12, 2003 - 3:54 PM)

QUOTE (kuya1284 @ Jul 12, 2003 - 3:13 PM) One last thing, don't expect this project to be a SIMPLE bolt on... It WILL require a lot of effort on your part. Ill tell you what I expect and you can bring me into reallity, I will buy a GT probably 94, in the fall/winter buy all the parts I will need, harness, plugs, wires, fluids, act clutch?, buy the 3sgte engine complete, so it comes with ecu and tranny, which i cant use because its a awd tranny right? So I get it delivered to this mechanics place where he is going to do it on the side to save me money. So he lifts out the old engine, takes the parts of my old engine puting them on the new engine, puts the new belts plugs and what not on. Lowers it back in, hooks up the tranny tops off the fluids and we are off to the races (not litterally). BUT from what Im reading I will need to rewire some things. Drill a new hole for the harness or extend it? which is recomended? If I get the engine in say quebec I think I will take a trip up there and pick out my engine finding the cleanest newest one I can find, with lowest m.km on it. I think that can eliminate extra expense as far as water pump and other parts are concerned. Another thing, thse are the same series engine right? The 3sgte is just a jspec tc version? So all parts will swap over right?

There's a lot more to doing the wiring than just extending it...but if you know how to solder and have lots of patience it should be no problem...drilling a hole in the firewall is going to be a lot more work then you think, but then again if you have the patience for either...I'd drill the hole ...but since I wanted it done professionally I sent off to ELP to get my wiring done...they took a few months but did a damn good job. The wiring looks stock.

[Teyaku]

QUOTE (Uppitycracker @ Jul 12, 2003 - 6:42 PM)

Dude I searched and the information is scetchy and not conclusive, one guy will say yes you need a new tranny, the next guy will say the stock tranny can take 400hp. One guy will say you can drop it right in, next guy you need new custom axles, you getting my point for a beginner in celiceas let alone cars this is very confusing, Im trying to learn but with all this contradictory information floating around its pretty hard, thats what faqs are good for!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for the help anyway, i know how it can be seeing the same topics over and over

Hey man I didnt mean that in a sarcastic way..sorry I understand your position.

As for the stock tranny, I wouldn't push it passed 300HP, Burien has their's at 350 with no probs. As for the bolt up, the 5sfe mounts are the same as the 3sgte it bolts right up...and the tranny will bolt right up as long as you make sure you get a 3sgte pressure plate, 5sfe clutch disc and 5sfe t.o. bearing. The stock axles will fit..but aren't strong enough. If you want to do hellacious burn outs....get a Camaro, if you want to have fun with more power in a Celica do the swap ...as long as you don't power shift your stock axles will handle the power...in other words squealing the tires with the stock axles is not a good idea...they go snap...my cv joint went bye bye...torqued it completely off right at the hub...so yah get stronger axles if you plan to race.

[Teyaku]

QUOTE (Uppitycracker @ Jul 12, 2003 - 3:26 PM)

hey thanks for the additional info, this is just new territory for me so Im just trying to read and absorb as much as i can then ask questions about it, the thread is here now so i might aswell post my information progress. from what ive been told above I wont need much to get it atleast running. i wont need any emmision mods so no USDM parts, I will buy new plugs, belts and so on, which I will address closer to the swap as too were i can get this stuff. Im just confused on the whole rewiring part. Sorry for the more questions I know they may be answered somewhere else, but lets say I get that new wiring harness, and its all plugged up, will the car drive atleast? would it be hard for a toyota technician to do the rest of the wiring? or will that cost me an arm and a leg? My problem is I dont know much about car electrical systems, is the harness to adapt the engine to the ecu, or the ecu to the car, or the engine to the car and ecu? ill just keep searching.

Your ECU controls the engine...it reads input from the sensors located all over the engine bay. I honestly didn't know anything about wiring in a car...but you have to remember something...wiring is simply electric current flowing through a circuit through wires and fuses...sensors are volt signals..it's not all that complicated...basically when it comes to wiring...just plug the connectors in

BTW what did you mean by the 3sgte being a j-spec engine??? J-spec is referring to Japan...as my motor is a J-spec 3rd gen 3sgte...a 3sgte is just the engine code. In America we got the 1st and 2nd gen or USDM's...200HP and 225HP...the 3rd gen J-Spec is 255HP and Euro engines were 245HP.

This post has been edited by Teyaku: Jul 12, 2003 - 10:01 PM

[Uppitycracker]

QUOTE (Teyaku @ Jul 12, 2003 - 7:10 PM)

[/QUOTE] Your ECU controls the engine...it reads input from the sensors located all over the engine bay. I honestly didn't know anything about wiring in a car...but you have to remember something...wiring is simply electric current flowing through a circuit through wires and fuses...sensors are volt signals..it's not all that complicated...basically when it comes to wiring...just plug the connectors in BTW what did you mean by the 3sgte being a j-spec engine??? J-spec is referring to Japan...as my motor is a J-spec 3rd gen 3sgte...a 3sgte is just the engine code. In America we got the 1st and 2nd gen or USDM's...200HP and 225HP...the 3rd gen J-Spec is 255HP and Euro engines were 245HP.

What I mean by jspec is its a engine from japan! The site that carries them says its from there scrap yards in Japan. I know the difference between codes and areas of origin. Also for some swaps it is just a matter of plug and play, with this swap it seems to be a little more complicated then that, Im familiar with the physics of analog and digital components. What people have said is there is some rewiring required for this swap on the ecu aswell as in the car, which is beyond my understanding, and Im sure beyond the mechanics aswell (maybe Im under estimating the schooling of a mechanic) so I would like more detailed info, and Im so serious when say this, every post you look up is like 2 car guys trying disprove the other, its frustrating, so once again a well written unbiased faq would be great. Something a laimen could understand. OK so new axles since Im also unfamiliar with that area where do people usually get these done?

[kuya1284]

QUOTE (Teyaku @ Jul 12, 2003 - 6:37 PM)

Hey Ray how's the car?

ELP is working on the harness... almost there baby...

Next up:

1. Get the front and rear bumpers re-installed.
2. Reupholster my interior.
3. ST205 Projectors and high's
4. JIC FLT-A2's
5. Racing Harts
6. Showtime in August...

[kuya1284]

QUOTE (Uppitycracker @ Jul 12, 2003 - 7:39 PM)

[QUOTE=Teyaku,Jul 12, 2003 - 7:10 PM] [/QUOTE] Your ECU controls the engine...it reads input from the sensors located all over the engine bay. I honestly didn't know anything about wiring in a car...but you have to remember something...wiring is simply electric current flowing through a circuit through wires and fuses...sensors are volt signals..it's not all that complicated...basically when it comes to wiring...just plug the connectors in BTW what did you mean by the 3sgte being a j-spec engine??? J-spec is referring to Japan...as my motor is a J-spec 3rd gen 3sgte...a 3sgte is just the engine code. In America we got the 1st and 2nd gen or USDM's...200HP and 225HP...the 3rd gen J-Spec is 255HP and Euro engines were 245HP. [/QUOTE] What I mean by jspec is its a engine from japan! The site that carries them says its from there scrap yards in Japan. I know the difference between codes and areas of origin. Also for some swaps it is just a matter of plug and play, with this swap it seems to be a little more complicated then that, Im familiar with the physics of analog and digital components. What people have said is there is some rewiring required for this swap on the ecu aswell as in the car, which is beyond my understanding, and Im sure beyond the mechanics aswell (maybe Im under estimating the schooling of a mechanic) so I would like more detailed info, and Im so serious when say this, every post you look up is like 2 car guys trying disprove the other, its frustrating, so once again a well written unbiased faq would be great. Something a laimen could understand. OK so new axles since Im also unfamiliar with that area where do people usually get these done?

If it's a JDM motor/clip and if you plan on getting a gen 3, rewiring is gonna be a beyotch. The ST185 wiring isn't that difficult to mess around with. If it's a USDM motor, everything should be plug and play.

As for the axles, it depends on the tranny that you plan on using. You can get these made by any shop that specializes in making axles... OR you can mix-and-match parts from different cars.

My friend, who dropped in a 3S in his Camry, had his axles made by ELP from like 8 different cars (or something like that). I know that there's a shop here in San Bernadino, Cali that makes custom axles. I just don't remember the name of the shop.

[Guest_Matthew_*]

If you dont want to use your GT tranny.

I would suggest using a tranny from a Curren or SS-III. They both have the 3S-GE engine and are both FWD. I hear that the tranny is just as strong as the AWD tranny but its just FWD.


You could probably get it from Jarco for around 400 american or so.