Finishing up 2slow2nervous's 3SGTE Swap, What a nightmare! Options

[2slow2nervous]

very nice! it is the correct afm rite???

[Dr_Tweak]

Sure is!

[2slow2nervous]

i wanna hear her running! How much longer till vrooom vrooom time...Sorry i feel like a lil kid on christmas not knoing what to exspect!!!! lol

This post has been edited by 2slow2nervous: Mar 30, 2007 - 12:10 PM

[angrymike]

word, i'm not trying to knock ya down mike but gotta put everything through the tests
i'm personally for function > form
so manifolds for me have to be able to last through long periods of hard driving (ie road course) were they HAVE to be on top of their game because they endure much more then any drag racer abuse will prove.
another question is do you design for the exhaust pulses as well, spiraling or what not? i'm not very familiar with this but maybe you could shed some light

look forward to seeing some cool stuff!

well, i do if i can. typically i will match pairs on length that that seems to work pretty well. sometimes its too tight to do what i want. in those cases, i try to get them as close as possible. i'm mostly concerned about fitment. i would rather lose 10whp then have to fix things later on.

what most people don't understand is that the difference between a tuned manifold and a un-tuned manifold may only be about 10whp at 400whp or somthing super small.

idealy, i would like to tune each header i build, but its gets a little expensive and at the price that i sell these, i just can't do it. i also build so many different things, that i usually only get one or two that are the same engine and setup a year. most times if its the same engine, the turbo is different, or they want a/c or they are running a 50mm wastegate or somthing. usually its always different.

most times manifolds arn't the problem. i wouldn't be suprised if that saturn manifold could make 800whp on a honda, but due to the saturn head and intake manifold being so crappy, it may only make 320whp with a stock head and intake. so in that case its not the manifold, but all the stuff before it.

i could talk about this all day, so if you guys want to talk more about it, we should get another thread going.

yea i dont really appreciate this b.s here either... Im just trieng to keep up to date on my car.. And i hafta hear all these crack ass haters pissing on this thread. Doc is doing great work and helping me greatly i have no problems with anything he is doing. His pricing for me has been great to. the car is coming nicely and no1 can appreciate his work just get pissed cuz they dont do it as good. To all that cant say decent **** hear do not post. Do us all favor make a new thread of get a life!

sorry about stealing your thunder

[phattyduck]

the cross sectional area is the same, unless they are hacking off some amount of the IC core. Instead of 1 shoter fat area the charge now goes 1/2 as wide but makes a double pass....if you do your math and all that fun jazz and common sense its cooling the exact same amount as it would in a normal straight setup. only downside is the 180* turn that it now was to do on the other end tank but its negligible performance wise

Not only that, the route taken to get to the intercooler from the turbo is much shorter and uses less bends, so in the end you win out this way.

I have to dissagree, at least to some extent here. The the time that a given volume of air is inside the intercooler is the same, and should generally provide a similar amount of cooling whether it is a single pass or dual pass intercooler. And you are also correct that there will be less total volume in the system than routing a pipe around.

Now imagine you are the air going through the intercooler - you have to go through the top half of the intercooler (half of the total cross-sectional area) which would double the amount of flow restriction through the intercooler. Then you get to the end, go through an end tank that likely has a smaller cross-sectional area than the intercooler pipes (with non-mandrel bends) and come back through the other half of the intercooler. In the end, the air is travelling through half the area for twice the distance. Ugh. Nasty.

Regarding the longer pipe path: The turbo can fill about 20 feet of 3" ID pipe per cubic foot of air flowed. It is small fractions of a second to fill pipes - and I would personally rather have a slight pipe filling time than a flow restriction.

-Charlie

PS. I'm not hating on the quality of the work. This is actually on of the few times I've seen problems with the work that the good Dr. (and now his new cohort ) has (have) done.

This post has been edited by phattyduck: Mar 30, 2007 - 1:32 PM

[Dr_Tweak]

Well, that's entirely bench-racing and theory-talking. If someone wants to bring down their 3SGTE Celica, with a 3" mandrel-bent exhaust, stock boost and tune, and a "normal" side-flow intercooler, then we'll run them back to back on the Dynojet and see what happens.

Fact of the matter is, this cheap ebay core isn't going to do that much cooling as it is, so...

Thanks for the props.

-Doc

This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Mar 30, 2007 - 1:37 PM

[phattyduck]

Well, that's entirely bench-racing and theory-talking. If someone wants to bring down their 3SGTE Celica, with a 3" mandrel-bent exhaust, stock boost and tune, and a "normal" side-flow intercooler, then we'll run them side by side on the dyno and see what happens.

Fact of the matter is, this cheap ebay core isn't going to do that much cooling as it is, so...

Thanks for the props.

-Doc

Of course its bench racing!

But bench racing is where you get many good ideas to try out in the real world. It would also be quite easy to put this intercooler on a flow bench and compare it to the normal side-flow version.

At least I don't have to think about this too much on my ST205 motor - it already has a great intercooler for my purposes.

For my WRX, on the other hand - I have to find a FMIC I actually like - good core, decent piping, etc. Finding the balance of cooling airflow (that also has to go through the radiator) and charge air (going through the core) is a tough challenge.

-Charlie

[2slow2nervous]

the intercooler that i got now was on the budget that i had... Down the road im looking to get another fmic but a kickass one... Im gonna want the duel port on the one side anyways so i will need to find one like that. Were could i get one?

[Dr_Tweak]

We can get that for you.

-Doc

[2slow2nervous]

i dont have the cash rite now for it tho... I can get my car payed for and home...Dont have extra for the fmic rite now.

[x_itchy_b_x]

the intercooler that i got now was on the budget that i had... Down the road im looking to get another fmic but a kickass one... Im gonna want the duel port on the one side anyways so i will need to find one like that. Were could i get one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/27x11x3-One...sspagenameZWDVW

[2slow2nervous]

what brand is that?

[Punisher]

Seriously where are we starting on "hate on tweak" thread? I'd like to sign up for a 900 dollar exhaust system.. Just like the one that I do for 400.. Yes.. that is 304 SS pipe as well. Tweak.. maybe I wouldn't think so lowly of you if you didn't charge people for everything. Hell, when I did my swap I asked you a few questions about the wiring.. what was your response? "Send it down to me and I'll do it for you."

Wrong answer.

This post has been edited by Punisher: Mar 30, 2007 - 6:12 PM

[2slow2nervous]

Seriously where are we starting on "hate on tweak" thread? I'd like to sign up for a 900 dollar exhaust system.. Just like the one that I do for 400.. Yes.. that is 304 SS pipe as well. Tweak.. maybe I wouldn't think so lowly of you if you didn't charge people for everything. Hell, when I did my swap I asked you a few questions about the wiring.. what was your response? "Send it down to me and I'll do it for you."

Wrong answer.

lol dude and ur post u just wrote is guess what.... "the wrong post!" I dont wanna hear ur b.s on tweak or any of that sh+t so do me a favor and get outa this thread. Ur just causing cludder of b.s that i really dont wanna read and guess what neither do alot of ppl. Got it?!?! ok good

[Dr_Tweak]

Seriously where are we starting on "hate on tweak" thread? I'd like to sign up for a 900 dollar exhaust system.. Just like the one that I do for 400.. Yes.. that is 304 SS pipe as well. Tweak.. maybe I wouldn't think so lowly of you if you didn't charge people for everything. Hell, when I did my swap I asked you a few questions about the wiring.. what was your response? "Send it down to me and I'll do it for you."

Wrong answer.

I doubt that you're using stainless mandrel-bent piping and welding it with stainless wire, considering the fact that MY COST on a full exhaust is almost $400. Or perhaps, your time is not very valuable? And yes, I make my living from doing swaps and wiring, so no, I'm not going to teach you how to do it so that you can come on the forum and tell everyone that you do better work than I do and you can do the wiring for 75 cents. I do very good work, people are happy to pay me for my very good work, and my schedule is so full that I had to hire more help to handle it all. If it comes to the point that people no longer feel that way, then I will either do something else or I will charge less.

And on that note, I'm not going to spend one more second of my time talking to an ignorant asshole like you.

-Doc

[easternpiro1]

HOLY SHNIKES!!! I JUST HEARD DOC CURSE FOR THE FIRST TIME!!!!!!!! whoa!!! i didnt think much could piss the guy off!


its bad when somebody that laid back gets pissed. lets try to be nice okay?

[angrymike]

a dual pass intercooler has worked pretty well for me in the past. i did one on an rsx last year with great success. 320 whp on 8 psi, gt32, ambient air temps.

i don't square the endtanks, so there is a mandrel bend at the other end of the core. i'll post up some pictures of it tomarrow.

when usuing a dual pass, your utilizing the whole core apposed to having no-flow areas.

i would put money on better air temps with this system apposed to the regular configuration. if your going to have a 180 degree bend, it might as well be on the intercooler.

if you think the phisical size of the passages are too small and are a restriction, then why does garrett have a air/water intercooler core that is 12X5X5 that will support 1000whp?

before i get some stupid answers about a/w being different, i'm not talking about the disipation of heat, i'm talking about restriction. this car will probably make 250~300whp. you could probably make that power with 1.5" piping through out.

i've personally built an a/w for a mr2 with a 3rd gen 3sgte running a blow zilla (t4/gt40). i used a dinky 12x4.5x8 a/a core and converted it to a/w. running 10psi, 85 degree shop temp, running garden hose, 3 hours of tuning, the intake temps never went above 60 degree F. it made 360.

part number = 734408-6005

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarre...ntercoolers.htm

i hope you guys don't think i'm doing this for fun. if i didn't think it would work at least the same or better, i wouldn't have done it.

this is also not the first turbo setup i've built.

This post has been edited by angrymike: Apr 1, 2007 - 5:32 PM

[2slow2nervous]

doc tweak and angry mike kno what their talking about and my car will prove it.... Ill take their word on what they say.

[phattyduck]

a dual pass intercooler has worked pretty well for me in the past. i did one on an rsx last year with great success. 320 whp on 8 psi, gt32, ambient air temps.

i don't square the endtanks, so there is a mandrel bend at the other end of the core. i'll post up some pictures of it tomarrow.

when usuing a dual pass, your utilizing the whole core apposed to having no-flow areas.

i would put money on better air temps with this system apposed to the regular configuration. if your going to have a 180 degree bend, it might as well be on the intercooler.

if you think the phisical size of the passages are too small and are a restriction, then why does garrett have a air/water intercooler core that is 12X5X5 that will support 1000whp?

before i get some stupid answers about a/w being different, i'm not talking about the disipation of heat, i'm talking about restriction. this car will probably make 250~300whp. you could probably make that power with 1.5" piping through out.

First, please don't confuse me with Punisher, who seems to have it out for you and Tweak. I've taken time to specifically back up the Dr. on a few occasions here.

I don't feel like breaking out the calculator here to keep bench racing on this... You bring up some good points, and some not so good points.

I don't want to make it sound like a dual pass core can't work - I just think there could be a good discussion about what is best in each case (top to bottom flow, dual pass, side-flow, end-tank design, air-to-water, air-to-air, etc). This can come down to performance, price, ease of installation, packaging, complexity - its a complicated issue and that's why we all come here to learn and discuss.

-Charlie

[Dr_Tweak]