Need help deciding if I should sell out...., How can you put up with FWD? Options

[96bluevert]

You can say whatever you want about how the cars look on paper and what not....A car on paper is simply that, a car on paper. Look at the Mini Cooper, it looks really bad on paper. But the thing rules. That's just how some stuff is. I understand this is the internet and personal testimonies don't mean jack crap on here, but I know what I know.

Thank You! That's exactly it! People tend to look at only the facts and judge from there. They think that just because a car's 0-60 time is better or the track time is better on one car that automatically that car is the best out of the two. Though, untill you actually drive each one to make your own comparison you shouldn't be so quick to judge. I mean i'd expect most people on a Celica site would be able to relate to that because in the minds of a lot of people, celicas are pretty slow, but most of us on here do know the potential of and what these cars can really do. I know some of you will dissagree, and that's cool. even if two people drive the same two cars there CAN be different opinions, but it's all personal prefference. I mean i'm not trying to argue with anyone, i respect that people do make thier own comparrisons, and if theier different than mine, that's cool too..

ok, sorry just had to get that out.

[tin_foil]

Look at the Mini Cooper, it looks really bad on paper. But the thing rules.

Hmmm…
Mini Cooper S specs*:
Turbocharged 1.6L Inline 4
175 hp @ 5500 rpm
177(+15 during overboost) ft-lbs @ 1600 rpm ←(holy crap)
Compression Ratio: 10.5:1
Curb weight: 2668 lbs.
0 – 60 mph. 6.7 sec.
*If you want to see the thing get disgustingly fast, check out the JCW tuning kit.

That don’t look so bad to me…

Look at the number of race cars out there and find out exactly how many are FWD and how many are RWD. Obviously you won't see any FWD Skylines or Mustangs, but they aren't the only "race" cars out there. The SRT-4, RSX-S, Integra R, Sentra SE-R, Civic Si, and the Celica amongst others have more than proven themselves out there.

Alrightly, here’s my list: (sorry if I missed a few, it was thrown together hastily)
FWD:
RSX-X
Civic
Celica
Sentra SE-R
GTI
Corrado VR-6
Eclipse
3000GT(Stealth)
Neon SRT-4
Mini Cooper
Cobalt SS
Tiburon
Integra R(virtually a civic)

RWD:
S2000
M3
Elise
Boxster
Miata
240sx
300zx
350z
RX-7
RX-8
MR2
Supra
Corvette
Mustang
Firebird
Camaro
Viper
GS430
NSX
GTO

AWD:
EVO
WRX STi
Talon
911(some RWD)
A4
3000GT VR-4
Skyline
TT

Well, I definitely see a tread...it seems that in general the nicest, fastest, most expensive sport and racing cars are all RWD or AWD, and pretty much dominate all types of racing.

Tin_Foil, **** you, man. You're an idiot.

Right, buddy, sorry I stepped on your toes by correcting your erroneous comments. Every post makes your inexperience more clear. I suggest you quit while you’re ahead…oh wait…never mind…

This post has been edited by tin_foil: Apr 26, 2007 - 11:42 AM

[Defgeph]

Nate, please try to relax.

[Defgeph]

Without a doubt, RWD comes out on top. Followed by AWD then FWD.

To say one sucks is completely unfair. I love my car and I'm happy with my results. This is what keeps me reaching forward for more. I know its not as good as a RWD or AWD vehicle. But its still a crap load of fun to drive.

I dont know why I just enjoy the FWD platform. I really want a k20a civic hatch. After that car is built I'd like a Supra.



Keep it clean gentlemen

[tin_foil]

Thanks defgeph. This was the sort of comments I was hoping for originally. Have you considered an AWD conversion. That wouldn't be any harder than a k20 swap. I think that's the only way I'll be able to justify keeping my celica in the long run.

Have you checked out some of the K20 swapped runs on utube...amazing stuff. Especially in a CRX.

btw, I love your celica. Gotta be one of the nicest in the states. A while ago I was considering getting some gold rims, but then I realized people would probably figure I was trying to start a defgeph fan club.

[macavely]

FWD sucks.

Look at the sports cars that are on the market today - the ones that you dream about. 90% are RWD and the other 10% are AWD. How many are FWD? None. Do you know why? Because FWD is designed for safety for the average driver in snow and rain conditions. Nothing else. While its kinda cool to make a FWD car fast, there are many distinctions that make fast RWD cars better. Traction, Power Oversteer, No Torquesteer, Easier to prevent understeer, etc. These things make incredible differences in how fun the car is to drive. (my $.02)

One car i dream about and would love to have VW GTi ....


Sure i love to take a corner in a rwd sports coupe.. and love even more to rip the line in an awd... and fwd i just love it cause i have fun making bad drivers in better preforming cars feel like crap ..

but to anyone that owns a celi and think FWD suck .. my question to you is . why did you get a FWD car ??

[OrbitalGT95]

when it all comes down to it...a pro driver would rather choose awd and rwd over fwd, there is simply to many limitations like why power, steer and brake with the same wheels...its pointless and severely takes away from the car. No disrespect to the fwd drivers. If you can master it, more power to you, but honestly lets admit it, fwd has major draw backs and I honestly feel that anyone that says fwd doesn't, has not been consistently been behind the wheel of a tuned rwd or awd car

[Defgeph]

Thanks Tin!

I have gone back and forth many times with the AWD conversion. I would love to do it. But, I dont have the confidence in myself to do the AWD conversion. I'd like everything to be square and correct in the rear end. I've seen a conversion in person. It looks easy but also looks very hard at the same time. Man am I torn.

Then I say...
"Maybe when I get fed up with traction issues after a turbo upgrade. I'll push myself over that long expensive edge". After I'm done saying that I say "If I'm going to blow that kind of money I'll just save for a Supra".


Youtube rocks. Have you seen Hasport's K20 crx ? They had to cut out a rectangle in the hood to fit the engine. What an awesome car.

It comes down to someones taste. Some prefer bodystyle, some prefer drivetrains, some prefer power deliveries. I always ask the question, what will make you happy ? If its a high horse power FWD go for it. If its a RWD go for it. AWD go for it.

Whatever it is you want, get it. You only live once.

[mikeismad0408]

hmm, lets see, you take your 240 on paper and you take a 99 gt on paper and then you shred them, because paper is nothing but paper, horsepower means nothing. sure it gives you something to brag about, i have seen v6 accords around here that cant keep up with my fwd celica. yes i know the accord is fwd as well but numbers mean nothing on the street. you tune your suspension right and fwd can take autox over any rwd car all day long. if you wish to "sell out" as you say by going rwd you do that, but remember...my celica looks better than your 240 any day

[Jeremiah]

Personal testimonies don't mean much with cars. Anyone can say anything, or have had an unusual experience.

O-RLY? Then why'd you solicit opinions on a FORUM?

But I'm curious to hear what those of you that are really car racers and modders say? How can you put up with a celica, no matter how much power you've got under the hood?

But, since you asked...

On the rare occasion I find myself on a track with my Celica, it's 'cause I want to improve my driving skills. I'm not interested in winning races - I have a motorcycle for that. It'll lap your over rated 240SX any day, and cost me 1/2 as much to buy & maintain. Oh - and chicks dig bikes more than 240's

I know my car isn't the fastest out there. I know if I spend $4000 in an engine swap, there's dozens of $4000 vehicles that will kick my ass in various types of racing. I "put up with it" because it's a car that fits me, my driving style, I think it looks fantastic, and it's way more reliable than a Nissan (JD power and associates rated the Celica "most reliable" more than any other car made... ever).

[jgreening]

Without a doubt, RWD comes out on top. Followed by AWD then FWD.

To say one sucks is completely unfair.

I agree with this. Its all relative and based on personal opinion. However, the objective reasons that I listed seem pretty compelling to me. As one of the two 3s swappers contributing to this thread, I feel qualified to give an opinion to the OP's question. When you ask: "Is it worth it?" I interpret that to mean: "Hey 3s swappers, if you had to do it over and your goal was to build a 2800lb car with 250WHP, would you rather have a RWD platform for performance reasons. I answer that question, with a resounding "YES!!!!"

[95st-celica]

i saw we make a car with power to the front right wheel and the left back one..or power to the right side or the left side..ahhha comeon that would be awesome!!!!

[Jeremiah]

"Hey 3s swappers, if you had to do it over and your goal was to build a 2800lb car with 250WHP, would you rather have a RWD platform for performance reasons. I answer that question, with a resounding "YES!!!!"

For what it's worth, the more I read, the more I see the "magic number" seems to be 200 HP @ wheel max for FWD before it's "too much". Much more than that is a waste (this will vary slightly from car to car of course).

[Defgeph]

Last dyno was at 245 whp. Its in no way to much. Right now, I want more and more.

I think the magic number should be moved up to 350 whp in a FWD. Of course throttle control comes into play at these numbers. You can't expect to stomp on the gas and not brake loose.

Itchy should be hitting around that number right now. I'm still waiting to see the full tune & higher boost. But it looks very promising as of right now.

[macavely]

"Hey 3s swappers, if you had to do it over and your goal was to build a 2800lb car with 250WHP, would you rather have a RWD platform for performance reasons. I answer that question, with a resounding "YES!!!!"

For what it's worth, the more I read, the more I see the "magic number" seems to be 200 HP @ wheel max for FWD before it's "too much". Much more than that is a waste (this will vary slightly from car to car of course).

I have seen and been behind the wheel of FWD car cars with 300WHP and did not feel like Too Much Power..

Her is a list a some of those cars..

VW GTi
Honda CRX Si
Scion tC
Dodge Srt-4
Mitsubishi Eclipse GS-t
Honda Prelude Si

[97lestyousay]

Traction issues = weight issues
Lets go back a few years.
455 Olds Tornado.... beat that with a rear wheel anything on
a flat dirt track. As for selling out, who cares.
Do what you want, last time I checked you don't need a
forums permission to change vehicles. If you are asking
opinions on what to purchase, start a poll IN OFFTOPIC!!
I keep my car because I love it, no other reason.

[cjh4l22]

no blame, i nearly bought a 95 240sx w/a modded ka24det... but bought the celi anyway, lol

[j0e_p3t]

"Hey 3s swappers, if you had to do it over and your goal was to build a 2800lb car with 250WHP, would you rather have a RWD platform for performance reasons. I answer that question, with a resounding "YES!!!!"

For what it's worth, the more I read, the more I see the "magic number" seems to be 200 HP @ wheel max for FWD before it's "too much". Much more than that is a waste (this will vary slightly from car to car of course).

I have seen and been behind the wheel of FWD car cars with 300WHP and did not feel like Too Much Power..

Her is a list a some of those cars..

VW GTi
Honda CRX Si
Scion tC
Dodge Srt-4
Mitsubishi Eclipse GS-t
Honda Prelude Si

add a rsx type-s to that list. i've driven my friend's and its crazy fast. they're like what, 225 hp stock at the crank and still handles great. didn't seem like too much when i drove it. and a lot of newer fwd cars come with 250+ hp v6's and what-not. still not as great as rwd or awd, but i think a lot of people don't give fwd cars enough credit. not to mention the drivers that know how to handle them.

This post has been edited by j0e_p3t: Apr 27, 2007 - 12:47 AM

[97lestyousay]

I was somewhat vague in my previous statment.
Weight issues = Traction issues

I think everyone understands weight transfer and how it
effects traction. In a low traction situation where transfer
is not a factor FWD will prevail over RWD always. It is simple
physics, the weight is already there. (MR doesn't fall into RWD class)
I have owned a couple 400+hp trucks and had as many traction
issues as most higher hp FWD cars seem to, the transfer is there,
the weight is not. As far as FWD sucking it depends more on what
you want than anything. I personally think FWD does it all as good
or better than any other platform. I think this discussion is a good one,
it just has very little to do with the original topic or the 6gc which is what
this particular forum is about.

[Jeremiah]

I wonder if the heavier weight of our cars is actually an "advantage" in keeping some of the power on the ground... instead of getting lost in wheel spin? I think most of us are also running after market tires / wheels that give us better traction.