Need help deciding if I should sell out...., How can you put up with FWD? Options

[tin_foil]

Lately I've been getting more and more into drag racing, horsepower, autox, drifting and upgrading cars in general. And sadly, my sexy little FWD GT celi just isn't cutting it. Now I'm in a decisional dilemma. For years I wanted a celica because I still think it's by far the nicest looking car of its class. When I first got my car, I had dreams of a 3s swap, and lots of exterior mods. But no matter what, racing a FWD car, no matter how much power at the crank it's got, just can't get that power to the ground well enough. I've played with the idea of an AWD conversion with the celi; I'm not at all daunted by the work, I just don't have 5 grand(+) to sink into it. For that price, I could get a 240sx shell, and drop in a RB26DETT. (that's the skyline engine for those of you that don't know) That would be an amazing car, and it would be crazy fun to drive.

Anyway, I know some of you will say stuff about how could I betray my kind. But I'm curious to hear what those of you that are really car racers and modders say? How can you put up with a celica, no matter how much power you've got under the hood? I love fantasizing about driving up to races with a kick-arse celica, half the people saying, "what's that?" and blow everyone away,(somewhat like tufy, ) but the money required to basically do a full gt4 conversion plus suspension upgrades and bolt-ons is just ridiculous... Should I just sell the black beauty and sink my money into something that can really perform amazing for cheap? Or maybe just save up for another year (maybe more), AWD convert the celica, and get a very good(with awesome handling, and looks), but not really that amazing of a performance car?

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

What kind of racing are you doing? You can't do all that you listed. You would never be able to set up a car right to handle more than one of those right. 3 things you listed, hp, drag racing, and drifting are all things better suited for RWD unless you're talking about all motor 4 cylinder class. The Celica is a great autoX car, but most don't know that. That's what I use my Celica for, and it works fine. I've got a nearly stock motor with more than enough hp. If you're looking to stop light race, buy something else. If you want to look cool and stop light race, just 3sgte swap and talk about how much better you are than everyone else on here. I have a feeling your just a streetracer, or you would know what you need to do.

[tin_foil]

no, I'm nowhere near a street racer. I didn't mean I was looking for one car that could do all those types of racing really well. I'm not that stupid. Here's what I feel based on my experience: At the moment I've got a b16 swapped CRX with bolt-ons that's getting dang fast, but of course, still can't really hold its own on the strip. I'd need it turbo'd and with slicks before that.(FWD sucks) I recently ran my 3000GT in an autox event. (not completely my car, I'm selling it next week; long story) It was fun, and the car handled fairly well, but I still don't like the feeling of my arse slipping out from behind me when I corner.(once again FWD sucks) And lastly, I've got the celica, which as you say, I realize can make a fairly decent rally or autox car with some suspension mods, but is hardly worth it because FWD STILL sucks.

My whole point is just that pretty much no matter what type of racing you do, AWD or RWD is way better. (I realize this is somewhat personal opinion and others might disagree...but nearly anyone thats actually driven all 3 types would agree with me ) So, I'm just feeling somewhat disappointed with my celica and am considering selling and getting a RWD car......or possibly a AWD conversion, but that's just SO MUCH money for what you get...

This post has been edited by tin_foil: Apr 18, 2007 - 12:42 AM

[bccentaur3]

dude you ahve stated that FWD SUCKS. Do yourself a favor and get a RWD car or AWD. I love awd cars. The only rwd car I've driven was my last car an mr2 spyder, but that was a mid engine car. Just go out and get a subura impreza wrx for like 16,000.

[j0e_p3t]

how much do you really love your celi? if its worth keeping around, do the gt-four conversion and you'll love it even more. but if its just another car to you, get something rwd or awd.

[trdproven]

yeah, its mostly about having the pride of your car no matter the cost. If I had the patience, I would do the AWD swap and take respect. Again, I love my celi but I want to lean towards a Supra. I had two older supras but they are sold already.

[OrbitalGT95]

Lately I've been getting more and more into drag racing, horsepower, autox, drifting and upgrading cars in general. And sadly, my sexy little FWD GT celi just isn't cutting it. Now I'm in a decisional dilemma. For years I wanted a celica because I still think it's by far the nicest looking car of its class. When I first got my car, I had dreams of a 3s swap, and lots of exterior mods. But no matter what, racing a FWD car, no matter how much power at the crank it's got, just can't get that power to the ground well enough. I've played with the idea of an AWD conversion with the celi; I'm not at all daunted by the work, I just don't have 5 grand(+) to sink into it. For that price, I could get a 240sx shell, and drop in a RB26DETT. (that's the skyline engine for those of you that don't know) That would be an amazing car, and it would be crazy fun to drive.

Anyway, I know some of you will say stuff about how could I betray my kind. But I'm curious to hear what those of you that are really car racers and modders say? How can you put up with a celica, no matter how much power you've got under the hood? I love fantasizing about driving up to races with a kick-arse celica, half the people saying, "what's that?" and blow everyone away,(somewhat like tufy, ) but the money required to basically do a full gt4 conversion plus suspension upgrades and bolt-ons is just ridiculous... Should I just sell the black beauty and sink my money into something that can really perform amazing for cheap? Or maybe just save up for another year (maybe more), AWD convert the celica, and get a very good(with awesome handling, and looks), but not really that amazing of a performance car?

s14 rb25 owner here. First off, i mean no disrespect. but do have any idea how hard it is to swap an rb25, let alone an rb26 into a S chaise. There is more custom fabrication involved in that swap then converting your celica to awd. Not even considering price here and finding a rust free chaise anyway. My advice...stick with your celica, 240's and drifting is sooo stupid anyway. If you want an a modified 240, buy one that already modified...like mine, 10k take her

This post has been edited by OrbitalGT95: Apr 18, 2007 - 11:26 AM

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

If you really think that FWD sucks, then you don't know how to drive it. Make things easier on yourself and just get an AWD car. With a FWD you can enter a turn faster and most allow for sigificant wieght savings and flexability with tires. With drag racing, the FWD and the RWD are pretty close to each other. AWD is the one with the handy cap, unless your talking street cars. AWD is limiting on tires you can run with 2 diffs. RWD doesn't hook up on ralley, and there aren't many cars out there that are RWD and technologicly advanced and cheap at the same time. FWD has it's handy caps, but most are just due to impropper set up and people not knowing to drive them properly. But, driving a FWD is hard. I hope to one day master it myself.

[purplegt4]

get a motorcycle.

[macavely]

well it seams like you know what you want. If the only thing right now that is keeping you in a celi is its looks, then your not going to have fun with that car at the track. If you can get your hands on another car that more fund to drive and is easier to modify then I say jump ship. I love my GT sure it not my daily driver anymore and my mom is using it more to go to work in the morning. But I know what i want out of it in the future. And it's not going to be a track car. It will be a street machine.

So go with a EVO , STi , 350Z. Mustang .. something that you can take to the track and get crazy HP out of alot easier then at Celica...

[99GT]

I've always had awd dsms for the longest time... and have been towed plenty of times haha. Towing is expensive for awd. My .02.

Go with an mr2...

[macavely]

My whole point is just that pretty much no matter what type of racing you do, AWD or RWD is way better. (I realize this is somewhat personal opinion and others might disagree...but nearly anyone thats actually driven all 3 types would agree with me ) So, I'm just feeling somewhat disappointed with my celica and am considering selling and getting a RWD car......or possibly a AWD conversion, but that's just SO MUCH money for what you get...

I just have to say to that.. I'm one of those people that have been behind the wheel of all three.. they all have their advantages and disadvantages.. the issue with all of them is the driver a good drive will never say one type of car suck. he or she would just fine a way to use the advantages of the car to its full potential. doesn't seam like your doing that with your celi..

[Jeremiah]

get a motorcycle.

x2

I'm not sure what you're really asking here. It sounds like you're very unhappy with your setup.

1) Understand the Celica's advantages and limitations. It's pretty, but heavy with very little aftermarket support (especially for go-fast parts). In other words - for the same ammount of $$$, you'll go faster in a different car. The Celica is a good looking car, and you can have fun driving fast in it. But, if winning races is more important to you than how you look going across the finish line, the Celica's not for you.

2) Decide what kind of racing you want to do, and how extreme you want to get. As a general rule of thumb, the more extreme your ride is, the shorter lifespan it's going to have - and the worse it's going to behave on the street.

3) Match the vehicle you want to your type of driving you want to do. If you choose to drag race, the Celica's going to be a pig - it's heavy, and weight KILLS you in drag racing. Boost your b16, and use that. If you go Autox - learn how to drive FWD better. FWD takes the most skill in autoX. Hone those skills, and you might be supprised at how much speed you can carry through the turns. Ralley - the ONLY way to fly is AWD. Drifting is stupid, but if you have your heart set on it get a RWD. I think the 240sx is over rated, and WAY over priced.

4) If you just want to go fast - spend $4000 on a used motorcycle, $1000 on gear (you will go down, and you'll want good gear when you do). You'll go faster than just about anything on 4 wheels. You'll save $$$ at the pump too.

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

I just have to say to that.. I'm one of those people that have been behind the wheel of all three.. they all have their advantages and disadvantages.. the issue with all of them is the driver a good drive will never say one type of car suck. he or she would just fine a way to use the advantages of the car to its full potential. doesn't seam like your doing that with your celi..

Can I get an AMEN?

I've got a buddy with a 240sx with a SR20DET swap, and he thinks it's great and he's so fast. Well, from stop light to stop light, he can out run me if he shifts right. But any other racing and I would stomp his ass. He's spending laods of money on parts for that thing, and he doesn't even know were the local track is. He just wants it for bragging rights. He's a good guy, but his methidology is a little off. And I'm getting really sick of people who do stuff like he's doing going around talking about how much FWD sucks because they have no idea what they are talking about. I'll try to make this my last post here. I just had one of my buttons pressed and it seems to irritate me everytime I open this thread.

[jgreening]

FWD sucks.

Look at the sports cars that are on the market today - the ones that you dream about. 90% are RWD and the other 10% are AWD. How many are FWD? None. Do you know why? Because FWD is designed for safety for the average driver in snow and rain conditions. Nothing else. While its kinda cool to make a FWD car fast, there are many distinctions that make fast RWD cars better. Traction, Power Oversteer, No Torquesteer, Easier to prevent understeer, etc. These things make incredible differences in how fun the car is to drive. (my $.02)

[96bluevert]

I just have to say to that.. I'm one of those people that have been behind the wheel of all three.. they all have their advantages and disadvantages.. the issue with all of them is the driver a good drive will never say one type of car suck. he or she would just fine a way to use the advantages of the car to its full potential. doesn't seam like your doing that with your celi..

Can I get an AMEN?

I've got a buddy with a 240sx with a SR20DET swap, and he thinks it's great and he's so fast. Well, from stop light to stop light, he can out run me if he shifts right. But any other racing and I would stomp his ass. He's spending laods of money on parts for that thing, and he doesn't even know were the local track is. He just wants it for bragging rights. He's a good guy, but his methidology is a little off. And I'm getting really sick of people who do stuff like he's doing going around talking about how much FWD sucks because they have no idea what they are talking about. I'll try to make this my last post here. I just had one of my buttons pressed and it seems to irritate me everytime I open this thread.

Amen!

seriously, I used to have a 240sx, and as fun as RWD can be. my FWD Celica handles soo much better

[OrbitalGT95]

I need to stay outa this thread before i get into trouble lol

[Ratix240sx]

I just have to say to that.. I'm one of those people that have been behind the wheel of all three.. they all have their advantages and disadvantages.. the issue with all of them is the driver a good drive will never say one type of car suck. he or she would just fine a way to use the advantages of the car to its full potential. doesn't seam like your doing that with your celi..

Can I get an AMEN?

I've got a buddy with a 240sx with a SR20DET swap, and he thinks it's great and he's so fast. Well, from stop light to stop light, he can out run me if he shifts right. But any other racing and I would stomp his ass. He's spending laods of money on parts for that thing, and he doesn't even know were the local track is. He just wants it for bragging rights. He's a good guy, but his methidology is a little off. And I'm getting really sick of people who do stuff like he's doing going around talking about how much FWD sucks because they have no idea what they are talking about. I'll try to make this my last post here. I just had one of my buttons pressed and it seems to irritate me everytime I open this thread.

Amen!

seriously, I used to have a 240sx, and as fun as RWD can be. my FWD Celica handles soo much better

Really, I think my girlfriends celica handles like a boat. I think 240 handles way better and plus it has a greater turning radius.

I'm building an NA Ka24de at the moment, I don't think parts are too expensive. You just have to shop around.

[tin_foil]

Wow...look at the argument I started.

Okay, first off, let me say, a debate about FWD vs. RWD vs. AWD was not what I originally intended. I honestly figured nearly everyone was in agreement about the merits of RWD and AWD. It now becomes clear that some people do not have the experience to know any better, as illustrated by these comments:

seriously, I used to have a 240sx, and as fun as RWD can be. my FWD Celica handles soo much better

I've got a buddy with a 240sx with a SR20DET swap, and he thinks it's great and he's so fast. Well, from stop light to stop light, he can out run me if he shifts right. But any other racing and I would stomp his ass.

When someone says, "my celica handles better than a 240", or "my celica beats my friends sr20 240." it means nothing. Personal testimonies don't mean much with cars. Anyone can say anything, or have had an unusual experience. But here's some facts for you all that may change your opinions a little:

Here's the technical specs of a 1998 240sx, and a 1998 celica. I hate to admit it, but the 240 is better than the celica in nearly all handling, performance and aerodynamic specs. The 240 is known for its tight cornering and responsive handling.
http://www.automobilemag.com/am/1998/nissa...ifications.html
http://www.automobilemag.com/am/1998/toyot...ifications.html

Here's info on the sr20det:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_SR20DET#Engine_Specs
We're talking an engine that has about 60 more hp, and 55 more fl-lbs torque than a celica in a car thats about 250lbs heavier and RWD. Somehow I doubt a celica could beat that in every way.

Okay, now on to the discussion of drive train. I realize that there will always be some amount of preference in what each person LIKES to drive, but there are some facts that every car enthusiast should know. Comments like this simply show lack of knowledge:

With drag racing, the FWD and the RWD are pretty close to each other. AWD is the one with the handy cap, unless your talking street cars. AWD is limiting on tires you can run with 2 diffs. RWD doesn't hook up on ralley, and there aren't many cars out there that are RWD and technologicly advanced and cheap at the same time.

But you don't need to blindly believe me. Here’s plenty of articles for you all:

Here’s a site explaining oversteer, understeer and the merits/flaws of RWD, FWD, AWD. (GREAT article, once again, stuff every car enthusiast should know):
http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/h..._handling_5.htm

Here’s an entry discussing torque steer. (a FWD-only problem)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_steer

Nothing official here, but just a couple of forum discussions about different drive trains:
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13620
http://forum.ebaumsworld.com/archive/index.php/t-25048.html

A short article explaining traction benefits of different drive trains:
http://www.familycar.com/nextcar/Step3.htm

Well I hope you all learned something, especially bigmeanbulldog. In case you didn’t want to read the articles, I’ll just say that here’s someone who actually knows what they’re talking about:

Because FWD is designed for safety for the average driver in snow and rain conditions. Nothing else. While its kinda cool to make a FWD car fast, there are many distinctions that make fast RWD cars better. Traction, Power Oversteer, No Torquesteer, Easier to prevent understeer, etc.

Once again I will say, I realize that PREFERENCE is an individual thing, but these are simply the facts regarding FWD.

And now I can finally get on to my real point of the thread. I was really just wanting to hear the opinions of you 3s swappers, and those of you that REALLY race.(meaning on a track) Do you think it's worth it? Of course you love the celica, but how do you feel about the fact that after all that money, it’s really not amazing at any type of racing? (good at autox, I admit, but the money could have been spent better on a different car)

In conclusion, I hope I didn't offend anyone. Like I said, I didn't mean to start an argument, but it's hard for me to bite my tongue when people post BS regarding car info.

This post has been edited by tin_foil: Apr 24, 2007 - 1:50 PM

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

You can say whatever you want about how the cars look on paper and what not, but don't call me ignorant. I've raced, and I've raced a lot. I'm newer into autox, but I've been on the drag strip and dirt track for years. A car on paper is simply that, a car on paper. Look at the Mini Cooper, it looks really bad on paper. But the thing rules. That's just how some stuff is. I understand this is the internet and personal testimonies don't mean jack crap on here, but I know what I know. Jay, you say that FWD sucks and no "dream cars" are FWD. Show me a STS capable RWD car besides the 240sx. Look at the number of race cars out there and find out exactly how many are FWD and how many are RWD. Obviously you won't see any FWD Skylines or Mustangs, but they aren't the only "race" cars out there. The SRT-4, RSX-S, Integra R, Sentra SE-R, Civic Si, and the Celica amongst others have more than proven themselves out there. Jay, you're a smart guy, I just think you’re a little off on this one. Tin_Foil, **** you, man. You're an idiot.