Going to push a different direction with our car for now Options

[Fastbird]

It's been a while, but it's time to make some changes to the setup of our swapped car. Remember that with a SMT6 piggyback and some other work, the stock CT26 made 249 HP and about 260 TQ to the wheels in Summer of 06. Over the winter I noticed that the CT26 will actually put out 18-20 PSI and HOLD IT TO REDLINE with good enough air.

So here's what I'm thinking (and it will all happen relatively soon):

AEM EMS for complete tunability w/GM IAT and 3 Bar MAP (AEM or GM).
Water/Alky Injection full time, boost referenced and tuned accordingly.
AFM Delete in favor of a better intake tract.

I figure by cooling the intake charge via the Methanol, the boost should hold on a little longer. I'm curious to see how much farther I can push the Ct26..........

There's a dyno shop here in IL about 15 minutes from me that is reasonably priced that I will be frequenting.

Thoughts? I'm sticking with the stock injectors for now as the meth injection will be partially like an added fuel also as well as a cooling tool.

[lagos]

18-20psi is WAY out of the operating range of the turbo. youll have a ticking time bomb on your hands, with a very short fuse.

if you want more power, then upgrade the turbo first, and do the AEM once you get to the point where you need bigger injectors. a ct20b or gt28rs would be a good way to go.

[brianforster]

exactly, i feel like there is much more power to be had with a gt28rs.

[Fastbird]

I will not be upgrading the turbo first as I want complete engine control above all. I'm above the mindset of tuning capability above all else at this point.

I still feel that with a more accurate tuning ability and a shot of meth with a little additional timing (as allowed by the meth) a decent gain can be seen at the 16 PSI level I'm sittin gat right now. I never said I was going to push the CT26 to 18-20 PSI, only noted that with good air it will hit and hold it as I found out last winter in Jersey. How close to that good air I can get will make that 16 PSI I have it set for that much more efficient.

Once this little endeavour is done, then I'll move to a bigger turbo, injectors, rail, and peripherals.

This post has been edited by Fastbird: May 16, 2007 - 11:07 AM

[brianforster]

well i guess theres no changing your mind, id suggest talking to the dyno place and finding out what their tuner is best with before you purchase the aem.

[lagos]

I will not be upgrading the turbo first as I want complete engine control above all. I'm above the mindset of tuning capability above all else at this point.

I still feel that with a more accurate tuning ability and a shot of meth with a little additional timing (as allowed by the meth) a decent gain can be seen at the 16 PSI level I'm sittin gat right now. I never said I was going to push the CT26 to 18-20 PSI, only noted that with good air it will hit and hold it as I found out last winter in Jersey. How close to that good air I can get will make that 16 PSI I have it set for that much more efficient.

Once this little endeavour is done, then I'll move to a bigger turbo, injectors, rail, and peripherals.

man your stubborn.lol


listen.... i have meth injection on my car, as well as a wideband, an safc for tuning, and a way to monitor knock. so ive already been down the road you plan to take. i can tell you that the ct26 at 17-20psi WILL blow your motor, even with meth injection. the fact that your knock sensor already blew is a clear sign that your pushing the stock turbo too much.

getting a stand alone is always a great idea, but you have to realize that is NOT where the bottleneck of the 3s exists. the jdm ecu has some pretty agressiving tiing advance in the stock fuel maps. there really is not a lot to be gained with a different tune. youll end up spending about 2grand for the stand alone (at least 500$ to pay a tuner just to get the car running normally), and in the end, you will maybe gain 10hp over what you have now, and the power band will still fall off at the top because of the ct26.

a smarter investment would be to spend 1900$ on a gt28rs kit. its a great turbo. on stock injectors youll make about 280hp/tq...and then when you buy the aem and throw bigger injectors in there, youll be able to crank the boost up even more and hit 300-350hp. youll never get that out of the ct26.

[Fastbird]

Art, I realize what you're saying. I guess I mis-stated my goal originally. I realize that the CT26 is the bottleneck, but right now my biggest concern is getting complete control over my motor, via the standalone. My entire point of moving to a standalone is to gain complete tunability for now moreso than extra power.

I plan to do the majority of the tuning myself. I've been doing a lot of N/A working on my own stuff for about 3 years now, and was playing with FI stuff last year and have been doing a lot of farting around with the piggyback also.

I'm not expecting to get huge power gains, but what I am expecting is a cleaner fuel map, no backfiring when I shift gears, no black soot on my rear bumper, and the ability to datalog, monitor, and on the fly change as necessary. I just can't in good conscience throw a bigger turbo on the car without knowing that I can 100% control what the car does first.

[brianforster]

recirc your HKS and the backfiring will go away

sounds like a lot of money to spend for some minor problems, but you are a grown man so ill let you make your own decisions. however you are going to throw a couple g's at the car, and at the end of the day, the drive home is going to be hardly different.

[playr158]

why not CT-27 intentionally running the turbo outside of its efficiency range is just pointless

This post has been edited by playr158: May 16, 2007 - 1:33 PM

[Fastbird]

For the love of god people, I'm not going to push the Ct26 any farther than I already have, which is the 16 PSI we set it for on the dyno, that it made and held. I simply want to knock the standalone out first as I view it as the cornerstone of future mods (fuel system, bigger turbo, cams, ported head, larger displacement). You can't reliable and accurately do ANY of that without a competent way to tune the car, which the standalone will provide.

All I'm going to do in conjunction with the standalone is add some enhancements to try to maximize the potential of the setup that I already have, that being the CT26.

Sit down and think about it. You have a motor with a stock computer, and some piggyback stuff, and want to throw a bigger turbo on it? Sure, you can tweak it to where it runs good, but there are limitations on tuning ability and what you can and can't do. The foundation of ANY high performance engine is going to be the ability to completely and accurately tune that motor.

[brianforster]

I'm curious to see how much farther I can push the Ct26..........

For the love of god people, I'm not going to push the Ct26 any farther than I already have,

This post has been edited by brianforster: May 16, 2007 - 1:48 PM

[lagos]

Art, I realize what you're saying. I guess I mis-stated my goal originally. I realize that the CT26 is the bottleneck, but right now my biggest concern is getting complete control over my motor, via the standalone. My entire point of moving to a standalone is to gain complete tunability for now moreso than extra power.

I plan to do the majority of the tuning myself. I've been doing a lot of N/A working on my own stuff for about 3 years now, and was playing with FI stuff last year and have been doing a lot of farting around with the piggyback also.

I'm not expecting to get huge power gains, but what I am expecting is a cleaner fuel map, no backfiring when I shift gears, no black soot on my rear bumper, and the ability to datalog, monitor, and on the fly change as necessary. I just can't in good conscience throw a bigger turbo on the car without knowing that I can 100% control what the car does first.

well that makes more sense.

the backfiring between shifts is all because of the vented bov. i recirculated mine a while back and never had a single backfire since.

but while your spending money... at the very least you should try to find a ct20b. for about 5-600 bucks, its a great bang for the buck, will give you a lot more power, and a better power range. with a stand alone on top of that, and 550cc injectors, you would have a pretty simple but bad ass setup.

why not CT-27 intentionally running the turbo outside of its efficiency range is just pointless

i hate the ct27 ... well not the turbo, but ats's pricing. for 1000$ before core charges, you could get a turbo that would make well over 400hp, instead of paying for a used turbo thats been rebuilt. i really wish they would sell that thing for 500$.

[Fastbird]

I'm curious to see how much farther I can push the Ct26..........

For the love of god people, I'm not going to push the Ct26 any farther than I already have,

I said that wrong initially. I'm not planning on pushing more boost, just at a tweak and tune point to see how much extra power I can get with the right stuff working things. My reference to noting that the car was holding 18-20 PSI in good cold weather was that there's no reason why without the correct setup and a cool enough charge that it shouldn't hold a consistent 16 PSI without trailing off.

Art, the CT20b crossed my mind, but correct me if I'm wrong, wouldn't I need a new manifold (different flange?)??? The other thing I've heard of is that the 20 has a ceramic turbine and not a metal one.........causing it to be prone to breakage. Is this a true statement or am I mixing it up with something else?

[jgreening]

I think its a good plan. Pushing above 250whp on the AFM and stock ECU is not all that wise given the stress on the engine and imprecision of the a/f mixture (coming from a guy who did it).

I also think that higher boost with a way to control ignition timing and monitoring knock is perfectly fine. The stories that the ct-26 is "maxed out" at 16psi are myths - plain and simple. The turbo is past its most efficient operating range but still will give additional power.

The MR2 gurus don't recommend it because there is piss poor intercooling in an MR2 and ignition timing cannot be effectively controlled with the stock ECU.

In sum, you are one of the few people upgrading your 3sgte who is doing it the right way. Good luck.

Jay

[lagos]

Art, the CT20b crossed my mind, but correct me if I'm wrong, wouldn't I need a new manifold (different flange?)??? The other thing I've heard of is that the 20 has a ceramic turbine and not a metal one.........causing it to be prone to breakage. Is this a true statement or am I mixing it up with something else?

no, you dont need a new manifold. just buy the turbo and thats it. it bolts up to everything on our motor. thats what makes it such a great upgrade. youll gain around 30hp at the same psi that your at now, and the power will hold till redline

yes, the ct20b is ceramic. but so is the jdm ct26 you have on there now. i believe any of the breakage stories you hear are from people who didnt realize their egt's were sky high. 99% of people never have a problem with ceramic turbos.

This post has been edited by lagos: May 16, 2007 - 3:10 PM

[lagos]

The stories that the ct-26 is "maxed out" at 16psi are myths - plain and simple. The turbo is past its most efficient operating range but still will give additional power.

its a myth to a point. the higher you go with the ct26, the less gains youll start to see past 15psi. even with a big fmic, and water injection, you can tell you are just pushing that stocker too far. most people just turn up the boost based on feel, and never have the proper tools to monitor whats going on. next thing you know, you start seeing 10 threads on mr2oc about how much the knock sensor sucks cause they just blew it. when in reality they were just pushing the ct26 too far.

honestly, my recommendation for people with a stock swap is to keep it at 13-14psi. it seems to be the sweet spot for safe a/f ratio and no knock response.

This post has been edited by lagos: May 16, 2007 - 3:11 PM

[GotToyota]

Are you using a factory/un-upgraded CT-26? If so, the stockers blow hot air after 15-16 psi. With that being said, it will be pointless running 18-20 psi, you'll actually be losing power because that boost isn't efficient for the turbo.

-Matt

This post has been edited by GotToyota: May 16, 2007 - 3:17 PM

[x_itchy_b_x]

i dont condone running 20psi+ with the ct26. but it definitely is faster if you have the intercooling capacity to cool that hot ct26 air. but you drastically reduce the life of your turbo. like if you know your going to be rebuilding the engine soon. then id say have some fun but other than that its still a bad idea.

[presure2]

i think looking at the AEM now, before any major upgrades is a GREAT idea.
IMO if you have any serious plans for the engine, thats the best place to spend money first.
yea, its a big investment, but once thats in there, the sky is the limit.
with a good tuner, you can maximize your tune for ANY turbo, be it the '26, '20b, or any other turbo for that matter.

[brianforster]

his first few posts suggested he was trying to push and tune the ct26 for insane amounts of boost, which is why i think art and i were confused.

however if this is just the first start of a long process, it is probably a good idea. i have often thought about going standalone with no major turbo upgrade either, and will be insanely jealous when you eliminate your afm