Toyota's FE engines Options

[pure_dx]

I want everyone's opinions on this one, I know there are a lot of boosted 5sfe and 7afe around here, and also non-boosted ones. But, seriously, is it just me or is the fe pretty much useless at top end. Well, I went to the local track and raced against an integra gs-r with i/h/e, i have the 7afe also with i/h/e, i beat him up to 3/4 of the way there, and the last quarter, he caught up to me, i guess his vtak kicked in y0. (Don't worry, his engine is not healthy at all and he couldn't hook.) But, pretty much, his top end just raped me. This got me thinking, not only this race, but a lot of races that i've done, my 7a pretty much craps out around 5-6k rpms after 1st gear. Is this just me or is anyone else experiencing this? 5sfe, 3sfe, 7afe, whatever ya got, discuss!

[presure2]

you discribe exactly what toyota wanted the FE series engines to do.
have good low-end torque, for every day cruising around town.
theyre not made to be high reving engines.

[Shocker]

Well you can put a turbo on it..I call that my v tac.


Or cheaper but less effective you can have a bad clutch that will also make your rpms scream.

[Bitter]

the ebay header made a HUGE difference in the topend pull. around 4000 rpm my engine just screams up till redline and lurches nicely into the next gear.

[OOBE]

Well, I'm not familiar with 5S-FEs but with the 7A-FEs, Toyota designed it to have peak torque down low at 2800RPM. You know the saying, "Torque gets you there, and horsepower keeps you there". Well, peaking the torque that low doesn't seem like taking you too far when you don't have much horsepower, huh? My car is a dog on the top end, but from the hole or a roll, it pulls hard.

[pure_dx]

damn, i need a 7age conversion.

[milnersXcoupe]

Change the camshafts - port the Intake manifold - run
Vance & Hines race motorcycle valve springs.

Your engine is falling on it's face because it
has run out of cam - with Toyota oiling systems
what they are - once able to breathe you can
spin 9K easily.

[Daftboy]

milners can you please explain what you mean....motorcycle valve's ?? im lost

[milnersXcoupe]

Valves ?

- you can install some Ferra valves or Manley to take the 9K rpm gaff - along with new locks and Titanium keepers.

The cam you have IS a Torque Cam - power band 'spread's are normally 4,000 rpm - so after a 1,200 rpm launch your engine makes its' most power up to 6,000 rpm - at which point - the valve timing is no longer such that it is in sync with the engines speed - opening and closing at the wrong times - so your engine goes 'Flat'.

Measure out the distance from when your rival starts pulling on you until the end of the run - figure out what rpm you would be at if your engine kept pulling - > that is the rpm 'ceiling' that you want for your New Camshafts.... but I'd call it quits by 8,500 rpm [ cams normally will make another 500 rpm of power for any given grind ] - you might be gear'd wrong for the track [s] you run - run a different ring 'n pinion gear set.

Your Valve Springs are 'Tuned' to provide closing power in conjunction with the Lift / Duration / Valve Seat Pressure of the installed Camshaft - but yours are Not the correct 'Valve Seat Pressure' to handle 6,000 to 9,000 rpm.

At a 7k rpm ceiling - the springs will be too weak to pull the valves shut in time - so you get 'Valve Float' - can easily trash an engine floating the valves one too many times...

When you install new Valve Springs - you adjust their height by machining the head and their Valve Seat Pressures adjusted using shims - or a combination of both.

With more Lift and higher RPM ceilings - you need Valve Springs built of the correct Valve Spring Wire to get Values that will work
with that Higher Performance Camshaft[s].

With more Valve Lift your machinist will check the valve guides / stem lengths to see that there is
no collision going to occur.

Vance & Hines Racing in Ca. are the Premier street & race motorcycle engine builders - Toyota Engines
are just bigger Yamaha motorcycle engines - this is where the shim 'n bucket design stems from.

Vance & Hines have Valve Springs made for them and their customers - Top Shelf - buy a set of those.

Motorcycle 4 strokes can shift @ 11,000 rpm and keep on doing it virtually for the life of the Bike.

Most 'aftermarket' suppliers for Hi Po cars - if they know what they're doing - will sell you race motorcycle
valve springs for your Honda / Toyota etc. - Street HEMI - or Studebaker according to your Cam Specs.


You need a race cam that will Top Out around 8,500 rpm - with valve springs to match - race Titanium keepers - race valve locks.

I would also swap out the valves to something perhaps lighter - but such that the heads don't rip off at 9 grand - or 11 should you miss a shift - blow the clutch - scatter the trans.

When you do go to build yourself a racier engine - check with VENOLIA Piston Co. for their 'Ultra-Lite' versions along with their 'Ultra-Lite' Tool Steel Wrist Pins - engine will make RPM quicker and easily take 9 grand runs virtually forever.

If you're going Turbo - use their Turbo Pistons along with their 'Lightening' option - and Turbo Tool steel Wrist Pins - Teflon Buttons for either application - deletes the wrist pin locks which do fail.

VENOLIA are the leaders in road race - Top Fuel - Funny Car - Alky - etc. Racing Pistons - they are the lightest pistons available - been at this for decades.

I'd check on what connecting rods are installed as well for 9 grand rpm running - get the strongest connecting rod bolts available.

If you're going to run 9 grand - get rods for 9 grand rpm - not 11 grand - since those will be heavier.

Less weight is what it is all about when making RPM - have the crankshaft lightened and balanced as well.

This post has been edited by milnersXcoupe: Jun 15, 2007 - 3:05 PM

[presure2]

Valves ?

- you can install some Ferra valves or Manley to take the 9K rpm gaff - along with new locks and Titanium keepers.

The cam you have IS a Torque Cam - power band 'spread's are normally 4,000 rpm - so after a 1,200 rpm launch your engine makes its' most power up to 6,000 rpm - at which point - the valve timing is no longer such that it is in sync with the engines speed - opening and closing at the wrong times - so your engine goes 'Flat'.

Measure out the distance from when your rival starts pulling on you until the end of the run - figure out what rpm you would be at if your engine kept pulling - > that is the rpm 'ceiling' that you want for your New Camshafts.... but I'd call it quits by 8,500 rpm [ cams normally will make another 500 rpm of power for any given grind ] - you might be gear'd wrong for the track [s] you run - run a different ring 'n pinion gear set.

Your Valve Springs are 'Tuned' to provide closing power in conjunction with the Lift / Duration / Valve Seat Pressure of the installed Camshaft - but yours are Not the correct 'Valve Seat Pressure' to handle 6,000 to 9,000 rpm.

At a 7k rpm ceiling - the springs will be too weak to pull the valves shut in time - so you get 'Valve Float' - can easily trash an engine floating the valves one too many times...

When you install new Valve Springs - you adjust their height by machining the head and their Valve Seat Pressures adjusted using shims - or a combination of both.

With more Lift and higher RPM ceilings - you need Valve Springs built of the correct Valve Spring Wire to get Values that will work
with that Higher Performance Camshaft[s].

With more Valve Lift your machinist will check the valve guides / stem lengths to see that there is
no collision going to occur.

Vance & Hines Racing in Ca. are the Premier street & race motorcycle engine builders - Toyota Engines
are just bigger Yamaha motorcycle engines - this is where the shim 'n bucket design stems from.

Vance & Hines have Valve Springs made for them and their customers - Top Shelf - buy a set of those.

Motorcycle 4 strokes can shift @ 11,000 rpm and keep on doing it virtually for the life of the Bike.

Most 'aftermarket' suppliers for Hi Po cars - if they know what they're doing - will sell you race motorcycle
valve springs for your Honda / Toyota etc. - Street HEMI - or Studebaker according to your Cam Specs.


You need a race cam that will Top Out around 8,500 rpm - with valve springs to match - race Titanium keepers - race valve locks.

I would also swap out the valves to something perhaps lighter - but such that the heads don't rip off at 9 grand - or 11 should you miss a shift - blow the clutch - scatter the trans.

When you do go to build yourself a racier engine - check with VENOLIA Piston Co. for their 'Ultra-Lite' versions along with their 'Ultra-Lite' Tool Steel Wrist Pins - engine will make RPM quicker and easily take 9 grand runs virtually forever.

If you're going Turbo - use their Turbo Pistons along with their 'Lightening' option - and Turbo Tool steel Wrist Pins - Teflon Buttons for either application - deletes the wrist pin locks which do fail.

VENOLIA are the leaders in road race - Top Fuel - Funny Car - Alky - etc. Racing Pistons - they are the lightest pistons available - been at this for decades.

I'd check on what connecting rods are installed as well for 9 grand rpm running - get the strongest connecting rod bolts available.

If you're going to run 9 grand - get rods for 9 grand rpm - not 11 grand - since those will be heavier.

Less weight is what it is all about when making RPM - have the crankshaft lightened and balanced as well.

and at what cost?
then your still left with a head that will need a TON of work to flow all that air the cams are now capable of moving.
if you were talking G series, i'd be on board.
but not the F series.

[milnersXcoupe]

......... go ahead Elvis - punish 'em

This post has been edited by milnersXcoupe: Jun 15, 2007 - 6:29 PM

[Shocker]

my celica doesnt even rev that high??What is he talking about?

[laff09]

Building a valvetrain.

[x_itchy_b_x]

and at what cost?
then your still left with a head that will need a TON of work to flow all that air the cams are now capable of moving.
if you were talking G series, i'd be on board.
but not the F series.

and full standalone lol jeeze. im with you on the GE head.

[Kwanza26]

Heheheheh... funny.

[Hanyo]

milnersXcoupe, even if you manage to get the 7afe to spin that fast, you will not be able to idle properly.

The only way to spin the engine that fast would require variable valve timing ( vvti vtec ect. )

In that case, why bother spending all that time and money on a 1.8 liter engine when you can easily buy a honda GSR engine that has all the stuff you mentioned already.

All the stuff you mentioned in theory would work. Its just too impractical for someone to actually do. hence such negativity towards your post.

[Kwanza26]

All the stuff you mentioned in theory would work. Its just too impractical for someone to actually do. hence such negativity towards your post.

I'm negative because I don't think he knows what he's talking about. It's like he's advertising...

[Rayme]

FE heads just suck for high reving, the valve angles sucks. They are dohc engines but toyota might of just use a single cam. eh.!

[jdmart]

i think there useless in topend andif u must go turbo and spend bout 3k, might aswell save up another 3k and do the swap in my opinion if u wanna go turbo, do it in a better engine, 5sfe engines kinda suck and there heavy obviously i would know but thats just me............. best gears to me are 1st and 3rd