Using a '93 3SGTE ECU on a '91 3SGTE Engine and Harness Options

[BloodyStupidDave...]

I was curious about the mark up on this so I did a little research. These are the part numbers and prices from Toyota:

The $199 price tag must be in the time it takes to assemble... which, with the proper tools shouldn't take too long at all. You've got a very profitable product there Dr. Tweak, as long as there is a demand for it.

Nearly all the connector housings are not available from Toyota. Many of the loom connector housings don't even have their own part numbers. Furthermore, while some of the pins are available from mouser and the like, the connector housings generally are not. They are only available from specialist parts distributors and then typically only in multiples of 3000 or so.

Given that the total market opportunity is so small, plus the assembly and testing time needed plus the likely parts wastage, $199 seems like a fair price.

This post has been edited by BloodyStupidDavey: Jan 2, 2008 - 4:38 AM

[Gary]

I used to make these adapters. I sold one for $50.
And trust me, I will never sell them at that price again.
It just doesn't worth 2 hours doing it.
Soldering almost 50 wires onto those pins that are 1/8" apart is royal PITA.
Then again, if the adapter costs more than an ECU price, most people will just go buy a new ECU.

[WannabeGT4]

I was curious about the mark up on this so I did a little research. These are the part numbers and prices from Toyota:

The $199 price tag must be in the time it takes to assemble... which, with the proper tools shouldn't take too long at all. You've got a very profitable product there Dr. Tweak, as long as there is a demand for it.

Nearly all the connector housings are not available from Toyota. Many of the loom connector housings don't even have their own part numbers. Furthermore, while some of the pins are available from mouser and the like, the connector housings generally are not. They are only available from specialist parts distributors and then typically only in multiples of 3000 or so.

I gave you multiple part numbers. They are all available on more than one online Toyota parts catalogs. I can post the .pdf with the part numbers for hundreds of connectors if you'd like.
Mouser and Digikey are more than willing to supply lower quantities. Last I checked Mouser will even help you with the order if you don't know what terminal connector you need. Just mail them an example and they can find it for you.

Do you have any real experience with this subject?

[Dr_Tweak]

Woah, how did you find the PCB part number? I've spent hours looking for it and talking to Toyota to try to find it and I've never been able to, I had to get them from the manufacturer.

At any rate WannabeGT4, you're making a real jerk of yourself trying to say that I'm making such a fortune on these. Gary knows exactly what he's talking about when he says how hard they are to make. In fact, I'm going to call you out on this right now. You go and get the parts needed to make these, the PCB header and the three plugs, all the pins and wires, solder, epoxy, and heatshrink, and then keep track of exactly how long it takes you to put one of these together at the SAME level of quality that these are, and then multiply what your time is worth by the number of hours it took you to build it AND include the hours that you spent researching and ordering the parts, plus the time to test them to make sure they are right, plus the cost of all materials, and see what number you come up with. I'm really curious, because if you think you can do them so cheap, I'LL FREAKING HAVE YOU MAKE THEM AND BUY THEM FROM YOU!!!

-Doc

This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Jan 2, 2008 - 11:51 AM

[BloodyStupidDave...]

I gave you multiple part numbers. They are all available on more than one online Toyota parts catalogs. I can post the .pdf with the part numbers for hundreds of connectors if you'd like.
Mouser and Digikey are more than willing to supply lower quantities. Last I checked Mouser will even help you with the order if you don't know what terminal connector you need. Just mail them an example and they can find it for you.

Do you have any real experience with this subject?

Try actually ordering them. Connectors that are used in current-generation cars are generally available but many others are not. It also tends to be fairly difficult to find related parts. For instance, 90980-11009 and 90980-11019 are available from Toyota but try to find the female housings that mate to these male housings. Or find the terminals for 90980-10789.

Mouser and Digikey are both great companies but neither stock the vast majority of the connectors used by Toyota as they are far too specialised. For instance, the housing for 90980-11390 is Tyco 917992 and the housing for 90980-11391 is Tyco 917981. Neither Mouser nor Digikey stock these connector housings. BTW, I have overstock of both these connector housings if anyone needs them. As you can probably tell by now, I do have some experience in sourcing automotive electrical components.

[WannabeGT4]

Woah, how did you find the PCB part number? I've spent hours looking for it and talking to Toyota to try to find it and I've never been able to, I had to get them from the manufacturer.

At any rate WannabeGT4, you're making a real jerk of yourself trying to say that I'm making such a fortune on these. Gary knows exactly what he's talking about when he says how hard they are to make. In fact, I'm going to call you out on this right now. You go and get the parts needed to make these, the PCB header and the three plugs, all the pins and wires, solder, epoxy, and heatshrink, and then keep track of exactly how long it takes you to put one of these together at the SAME level of quality that these are, and then multiply what your time is worth by the number of hours it took you to build it AND include the hours that you spent researching and ordering the parts, plus the time to test them to make sure they are right, plus the cost of all materials, and see what number you come up with. I'm really curious, because if you think you can do them so cheap, I'LL FREAKING HAVE YOU MAKE THEM AND BUY THEM FROM YOU!!!

-Doc

Calm down. I said in my post with part numbers that the price must be in the time it takes to make these. Everyone knows that there is an investment in R&D that isn't recovered until a few units are sold. Then it's all about the profit margin. With the prices I came up with for connectors and assuming a reasonable $.10 per terminal connection, those materials should cost about $30. Add wire, solder, heatshrink tubing, and postage and the total can be rounded to about $50 (high estimate) and that's a $150.00 difference which is left to labor(pure profit if you're building these yourself.. Take longer than two hours to build this and there's something wrong with you. Unless you think your time is worth more than $75.00 per hour this is quite profittable. Prove me wrong and post your itemized pricing... Yeah, didn't think so.

I can understand your defensiveness but calling me a jerk for providing a possible alternative is not very professional. Everyone knows you're making money on these or you wouldn't be selling them. Some people would rather do it themselves than pay someone. Others won't mind paying for the service.

This post has been edited by WannabeGT4: Jan 2, 2008 - 4:06 PM

[WannabeGT4]

I gave you multiple part numbers. They are all available on more than one online Toyota parts catalogs. I can post the .pdf with the part numbers for hundreds of connectors if you'd like.
Mouser and Digikey are more than willing to supply lower quantities. Last I checked Mouser will even help you with the order if you don't know what terminal connector you need. Just mail them an example and they can find it for you.

Do you have any real experience with this subject?

Try actually ordering them. Connectors that are used in current-generation cars are generally available but many others are not. It also tends to be fairly difficult to find related parts. For instance, 90980-11009 and 90980-11019 are available from Toyota but try to find the female housings that mate to these male housings. Or find the terminals for 90980-10789.

Mouser and Digikey are both great companies but neither stock the vast majority of the connectors used by Toyota as they are far too specialised. For instance, the housing for 90980-11390 is Tyco 917992 and the housing for 90980-11391 is Tyco 917981. Neither Mouser nor Digikey stock these connector housings. BTW, I have overstock of both these connector housings if anyone needs them. As you can probably tell by now, I do have some experience in sourcing automotive electrical components.

I have no desire to actually order any of these parts as I have no use for them. I'm just posting the information I've gathered so that others may persue it further. Mouser and digikey were just examples. There are plenty of other parts suppliers out there. If it's not available, oh well. Go to the salvage yard and get the connector from one of the hundreds of toyotas or hondas they have.

Thanks for the information. If I'm ever in need of hard to find parts I know who to talk to.

[Dr_Tweak]

No dude, I'm serious. I really want you to make one and put together a total cost. If you could consistently do it as the same quality using all brand-new parts, then I'll buy them from you. You think that you can consistently get brand-new parts for $50 each and it only takes two hours to make? And your time is obviously worth less than $75 an hour from your post, so what is your time worth? $10 an hour? $15? Seriously.

Considering that most shops charge an hourly rate of $60 - $80+ an hour, a shop is already overbudget if it takes you two hours and the parts cost you $50, not to mention that you would make zero profit because PROFIT what you SELL the item for minus the COST of the parts AND the COST OF MAKING IT.

Now sure, if you're big on doing it yourself, you could go find a Toyota ECU and hack the PCB connector off, find a harness and hack the plugs off, and then spend half a day trying to solder the wires to the right pins without melting the plastic housing and dislocating any of the pins, then yes, you could do the whole project for... pretty much nothing. People like that would never buy this product and wouldn't need help making one, so it's a moot point anyway.

What REALLY irritates me is that all day long I read people complaining that there aren't enough products for our cars out there and they wish someone would step up and make this or or that or this, and EVERY TIME I come out and actually produce a product or service and provide it to the community at a price that is reasonable while putting some food on my table, I get someone like you or Lagos saying, "Oh well, I guess Tweak is making a mint off of selling these/doing these swaps/wiring that engine...., you guys shouldn't buy this, or have him do your swap, you should just do the swap yourself or find some crappy used parts and solder them together and it'll be just as good..."

Here's a big to you!

-Doc

This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Jan 2, 2008 - 1:39 PM

[WannabeGT4]

No dude, I'm serious. I really want you to make one and put together a total cost. If you could consistently do it as the same quality using all brand-new parts, then I'll buy them from you. You think that you can consistently get brand-new parts for $50 each and it only takes two hours to make? And your time is obviously worth less than $75 an hour from your post, so what is your time worth? $10 an hour? $15? Seriously.

Considering that most shops charge an hourly rate of $60 - $80+ an hour, a shop is already overbudget if it takes you two hours and the parts cost you $50, not to mention that you would make zero profit because PROFIT what you SELL the item for minus the COST of the parts AND the COST OF MAKING IT.

Now sure, if you're big on doing it yourself, you could go find a Toyota ECU and hack the PCB connector off, find a harness and hack the plugs off, and then spend half a day trying to solder the wires to the right pins without melting the plastic housing and dislocating any of the pins, then yes, you could do the whole project for... pretty much nothing. People like that would never buy this product and wouldn't need help making one, so it's a moot point anyway.

What REALLY irritates me is that all day long I read people complaining that there aren't enough products for our cars out there and they wish someone would step up and make this or or that or this, and EVERY TIME I come out and actually produce a product or service and provide it to the community at a price that is reasonable while putting some food on my table, I get someone like you or Lagos saying, "Oh well, I guess Tweak is making a mint off of selling these/doing these swaps/wiring that engine...., you guys shouldn't buy this, or have him do your swap, you should just do the swap yourself or find some crappy used parts and solder them together and it'll be just as good..."

Here's a big to you!

-Doc

You ever stop and think that maybe it's your attitude that may be what's motivating us?

I said unless you think your time is worth more than $75 an hour this is quite profitable. If you're making these yourself there is no shop overhead to factor into the hourly rate. Just a flate rate of $75 per hour. It's just like you had a job doing work for $75 per hour.

If you disagree with the prices why don't you put up an itemized price list... Yeah, didn't think you were going to do that.

This post has been edited by WannabeGT4: Jan 3, 2008 - 7:39 AM

[Dr_Tweak]

You're right, it's my attitude.

6GC Community, I'm very sorry for trying to make a living providing high quality parts, swaps, and wiring to you. I'll be sure it doesn't happen again.

-Doc

This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Jan 2, 2008 - 2:17 PM

[WannabeGT4]

You're right, it's my attitude.

6GC Community, I'm very sorry for trying to make a living providing high quality parts, swaps, and wiring to you. I'll be sure it doesn't happen again.

-Doc

Your only motivation here is to make money. You need to learn to coincide with the people here that are doing this as a hobby.

[BloodyStupidDave...]

If you disagree with the prices why don't you put up an itemized price list...

Okay, I'll bite.

Using a combination of your prices, RS, Vehicle Wiring Electronics and Trylon prices, each adapter requires:

$5.09 26 pin housing
$5.66 22 pin housing
$5.07 16 pin housing
$8.52 64 pin housing
$10.24 64 female pins
$10.24 64 male pins
$4.20 10m of 11amp thinwall cable (64 lengths of 15-16cm)
$2.48 2m of heatshrink (64 lengths of 3cm)
$2.00 24ml resin

Total parts, excluding sales tax, P&P: $53.50. I'm making assumptions on some quantities (such as guessing the amount of resin one would use); that housings and pins can be ordered individually (RS SSM is 50 for pins). Savings can be made for larger orders but it would seem unlikely that Dr. Tweak would shift more then 20 or so, so savings would be minimal.

I'd agree with both Dr. Tweak and Gary that assembly time is likely to be just under 2 hours. At the average of Dr. Tweaks' guideline quotes (which are comparable to similar shops in the UK), labour costs would be $140.

Whether Dr. Tweak uses a shop or not is irrelevant. A basic premise of business economics is that labour is never free even if you do the work yourself. If Dr. Tweak were to charge $30/hour for his time, add in £30/hour for premises, business rates, electricity/gas (power/heating/lighting) costs, insurance: Labour and overheads would still be $120. So the profit for the business would be a maximum of $25.50 on each item, or less than 15% profit (compared to the 25%-33% guideline for most businesses).

Or to look at it another way, for a healthy 30% profit, Dr. Tweak would need to be charging just $20/hour. I think that most people would agree his prices are appropriate, not extortionate.

Your only motivation here is to make money. You need to learn to coincide with the people here that are doing this as a hobby.

I think that is unfair. I don't believe that is his only motivation, although it is clearly a consideration as he is running a business afterall. I think your comment is quite revealing. You consider your Celica to be a hobby so you expect people to offer their services on a similar basis. It doesn't matter whether the organisation is the size of Toyota or the size of the some of the sole traders on here, that isn't going to happen. Toyota isn't going to offer to service your car at cost just because you are an enthusiast just as sole traders aren't going to run their businesses as charities. Sorry.

This post has been edited by BloodyStupidDavey: Jan 2, 2008 - 4:17 PM

[Dr_Tweak]

Well done. Actually, I would be happy to admit that despite being fairly skilled with a soldering iron, the care needed to construct these properly and consistently requires as many as four hours each, especially for the first batch. Also not even taken into consideration is that until a few posts ago I wasn't able to locate the 64-pin PCB connector from Toyota, leaving one of two options to get it: 1. order 3000 units (minimum order from Tyco) or 2. purchase them from a 3rd party vendor at a cost of $75.00+ (not kidding). Fortunately I was able to find a happy medium between the order quantity and the $75 pricetag that allowed me to put these together with a pricetag that made sense (ie, cheaper and/or easier than finding a new ECU).

One last thing. In case it's been forgotten, I DO run a shop, and we DO charge $80/hour as our base shop rate (tuning is more). So if I take 2-4 hours to build something, technically, if it were a one-off part that I was building for a customer's car in the shop, it would cost $80 an hour, or $160 to $320 just for labor. Obviously that would put the pricetag of these out of the question, so I make an exception. (A similar situation occurs with wiring harness conversions, we charge $399 and it takes more than 8 hours, which would technically be $640, but we feel that would be too expensive. For that matter, we often spend upwards of 40 hours on doing an engine swap, but we simply cannot charge $80 an hour for a swap because that would be $3200! Instead we charge a "flat rate" of $1900 because otherwise, swaps would just be too expensive to do!!!)

-Doc

This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Jan 2, 2008 - 4:26 PM

[WannabeGT4]

Well done. Actually, I would be happy to admit that despite being fairly skilled with a soldering iron, the care needed to construct these properly and consistently requires as many as four hours each, especially for the first batch. Also not even taken into consideration is that until a few posts ago I wasn't able to locate the 64-pin PCB connector from Toyota, leaving one of two options to get it: 1. order 3000 units (minimum order from Tyco) or 2. purchase them from a 3rd party vendor at a cost of $75.00+ (not kidding). Fortunately I was able to find a happy medium between the order quantity and the $75 pricetag that allowed me to put these together with a pricetag that made sense (ie, cheaper and/or easier than finding a new ECU).

-Doc

So four hours of labor and a connector close to $75.00. No wonder you were charging so much. Hopefully the part number I posted is correct and you'll be able to lower your price closer to, if not under the cost of a used ECU.

[WannabeGT4]

If you disagree with the prices why don't you put up an itemized price list...

Okay, I'll bite.

Total parts, excluding sales tax, P&P: $53.50. I'm making assumptions on some quantities (such as guessing the amount of resin one would use); that housings and pins can be ordered individually (RS SSM is 50 for pins). Savings can be made for larger orders but it would seem unlikely that Dr. Tweak would shift more then 20 or so, so savings would be minimal.

I'd agree with both Dr. Tweak and Gary that assembly time is likely to be just under 2 hours. At the average of Dr. Tweaks' guideline quotes (which are comparable to similar shops in the UK), labour costs would be $140.

Whether Dr. Tweak uses a shop or not is irrelevant. A basic premise of business economics is that labour is never free even if you do the work yourself. If Dr. Tweak were to charge $30/hour for his time, add in £30/hour for premises, business rates, electricity/gas (power/heating/lighting) costs, insurance: Labour and overheads would still be $120. So the profit for the business would be a maximum of $25.50 on each item, or less than 15% profit (compared to the 25%-33% guideline for most businesses).

Or to look at it another way, for a healthy 30% profit, Dr. Tweak would need to be charging just $20/hour. I think that most people would agree his prices are appropriate, not extortionate.

I disagree that you don't think it's relevant if he were using a shop. If this were the only product or source of income for a business I might be more likely to buy those numbers. If I were to do this out of my house there would be no overhead. I'd be making $75.00/hour just like if I had a regular job I'd use that to pay the bills and entertain my self.

Your only motivation here is to make money. You need to learn to coincide with the people here that are doing this as a hobby.

I think that is unfair. I don't believe that is his only motivation, although it is clearly a consideration as he is running a business afterall. I think your comment is quite revealing. You consider your Celica to be a hobby so you expect people to offer their services on a similar basis. It doesn't matter whether the organisation is the size of Toyota or the size of the some of the sole traders on here, that isn't going to happen. Toyota isn't going to offer to service your car at cost just because you are an enthusiast just as sole traders aren't going to run their businesses as charities. Sorry.

That's a ridiculous idea. I don't expect him to give anything away. I expect that when I offer an alternative he addresses the situation as a professional and not resort to name calling. A discussion about price and demand for the product should never have escalated into what this has become.

This post has been edited by WannabeGT4: Jan 3, 2008 - 12:14 PM

[Dr_Tweak]

That's a ridiculous idea. I don't expect him do give anything away. I expect that when I offer an alternative he addresses the situation as a professional and not resort to name calling. A discussion about price and demand for the product should never have escalated into what this has become.

Let's see, you come into a thread where I am offering a product, decide your "curious about the markup" and then proceed to attempt to present evidence that I am making these for less than $25 each and am therefore marking them up 800%.

What exactly IS your motivation for doing that? Really, why go through all the effort? Have I done something in the past to upset you or something?

-Doc

[lagos]

I get someone like you or Lagos saying, "Oh well, I guess Tweak is making a mint off of selling these/doing these swaps/wiring that engine...., you guys shouldn't buy this, or have him do your swap, you should just do the swap yourself or find some crappy used parts and solder them together and it'll be just as good..."

Hang on there for a minute...
I actually HAVE recommended your wiring services to more people then you might realize. You seem to do a good job at it (no complaints that i know of), and it saves the typical swapper a headache.

As far as you (or any shop for that matter) doing a swap for someone... No, I normally don't recommend it. Why? Because I feel that you shouldn't own a swapped car, if you don't know whats under the hood. I've gotten PMs from almost everyone of your 6gc swap customers. As soon as their car is starting to have some kind of issue, Im usually the one the run to for help. Most of these guys missed the learning experience of doing their own swap, and then don't know what to do once a vac line comes loose, or they need to change their spark plugs. Thats why my recommendation to future swappers will always be to ....do your own work, learn about your car, save money on laybor, and mail your harness out.


As far as these adapter harnesses go, I think the idea is really cool. I actually thought about doing something similar in the past for a plug and play swap harness a few years ago. There is a company that specializes in making these for honda guys that I contacted about doing this before. Im guessing thats probably who you are using to do these for you.

The only problem I see with them is that there are not a whole lot of people who would have a 93 ecu with a 91 harness. And for 200bucks, you could track yourself down the correct ecu, or repin your harness, if you happened to get stuck with the wrong one.

[Dr_Tweak]

I get someone like you or Lagos saying, "Oh well, I guess Tweak is making a mint off of selling these/doing these swaps/wiring that engine...., you guys shouldn't buy this, or have him do your swap, you should just do the swap yourself or find some crappy used parts and solder them together and it'll be just as good..."

Hang on there for a minute...
I actually HAVE recommended your wiring services to more people then you might realize. You seem to do a good job at it (no complaints that i know of), and it saves the typical swapper a headache.

As far as you (or any shop for that matter) doing a swap for someone... No, I normally don't recommend it. Why? Because I feel that you shouldn't own a swapped car, if you don't know whats under the hood. I've gotten PMs from almost everyone of your 6gc swap customers. As soon as their car is starting to have some kind of issue, Im usually the one the run to for help. Most of these guys missed the learning experience of doing their own swap, and then don't know what to do once a vac line comes loose, or they need to change their spark plugs. Thats why my recommendation to future swappers will always be to ....do your own work, learn about your car, save money on laybor, and mail your harness out.


As far as these adapter harnesses go, I think the idea is really cool. I actually thought about doing something similar in the past for a plug and play swap harness a few years ago. There is a company that specializes in making these for honda guys that I contacted about doing this before. Im guessing thats probably who you are using to do these for you.

The only problem I see with them is that there are not a whole lot of people who would have a 93 ecu with a 91 harness. And for 200bucks, you could track yourself down the correct ecu, or repin your harness, if you happened to get stuck with the wrong one.

Don't take it the wrong way Lagos, we're cool. I don't know what you do for work, but just imagine for a minute that you work a commission-only job, you have just about sealed a good "sale", and then the buyer calls you up and says that someone talked them out of it. (Brian Forster comes to mind). That's happened a few times and that's the only reason I brought it up. I don't know why, but some of you guys think that I'm rolling in dough and I'm not, I'm a regular guy just like you with a family at home who's counting on me to put some food on the table.

Honestly, you have a good point about people learning about their cars by doing their own swaps, and I totally agree it's a good idea. In fact, now that wiring is now my main focus, it doesn't matter to me either way because I LOOSE MONEY every time I do a swap for someone. They are just so involved and you can't possibly charge what they actually cost. (This is why so few shops out there will touch a Toyota swap).

And I have seen your recommendations on the wiring and I do appreciate that.

Actually, you would be surprised. I would say that fully 50% of my wiring customers have the wrong ECU (one way or the other). I know what you would have told them (get a clip!) But yes, there are plenty of people out there that will just cut/solder/repin their harness, and that's FINE! But if they want to save the headache, they can just pick up a patch harness and call it a day. For some people, $199 is a lot of money, and for some people, it's not.

-Doc

[WannabeGT4]

That's a ridiculous idea. I don't expect him do give anything away. I expect that when I offer an alternative he addresses the situation as a professional and not resort to name calling. A discussion about price and demand for the product should never have escalated into what this has become.

Let's see, you come into a thread where I am offering a product, decide your "curious about the markup" and then proceed to attempt to present evidence that I am making these for less than $25 each and am therefore marking them up 800%.

What exactly IS your motivation for doing that? Really, why go through all the effort? Have I done something in the past to upset you or something?

-Doc

My motivation is to provide a DIY point of view. What would the average hobbyist be saving if they decided to do it themselves. There really was not much effort involved. I had the .pdf with part numbers and it's just a few clicks to find prices.

[lagos]

Don't take it the wrong way Lagos, we're cool. I don't know what you do for work, but just imagine for a minute that you work a commission-only job, you have just about sealed a good "sale", and then the buyer calls you up and says that someone talked them out of it. (Brian Forster comes to mind).

I worked commission only job for about 5yrs. So i know all about that.
As for Brian, I actually walked Brian (and dozens of other swappers) through doing his swap from start to finish, over the phone, email, pm and AIM. Ive yet to get the commission check for those jobs.

Back on topic.... make a 2nd gen to 3rd gen conversion harenss. You'll make a killing on them with the mr2 guys. I expect 10% off each sale for the idea


WannabeGT4, you should start a new thread with info on where to get different harness plugs from. Not to take business away from anyone, but to provide a place, other then the junk yard, to source harness plugs from. There have been a few times that i had to replaced a damaged plug, but never found a place where i can just buy them new.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jan 2, 2008 - 5:47 PM