expanding the 3sgte, time to upgrade! Options

[pittfirefighter]

OK so now that i finally have my 2nd gen 3sgte running right... its time to start with the upgrades...
Now what has already been done:

EGR eliminated
cold start eliminated
TVIS eliminated
custom side feed intake
2.5" intercooler piping with FMIC
Garrett T25 turbo
0.5mm oversized forged JE pistons
eagle forged rods
tial 38mm wastegate
3" custom exhaust
and many other little things
check my profile for full list..

SO as almost anyone with the 2nd gen... first thing that i absolutely wanted to change was the AFM... grrrrr i hate that thing
now there are basically three options:
1. 3rd gen ECU, someone at mr2oc.com sells a full kit to upgrade your stock wiring harness to fit the 3rd gen ECU, its $700 including ecu and new map sensor and much more
2. piggyback ecu (i looked into the Greddy E-manage)
3. full standalone EMS

**** important info on the greddy e-manage****
this thing is not made for the 3sgte... it causes nothing but trouble for it. I recently spoke with Dr. Tweak and he says to stay away as well. Not only is it built poorly for a Toyota engine (it can't interpret some of the ignition signals) but Greddy is also bankrupt so getting help for this thing is nearly impossible... stay away and you will be happy

so after some consideration.. my first upgrade in a string of upgrades is a giant jump but i think well worth it in the end...


let me know what you think!

[_Jim_]

Hey, I read through your profile and it states you are running a GT2871. So based on that turbo and not knowing your power goals, a full EMS is not needed. If you were to step up to GEN3 electronics, you will have enough fuel to support the power that turbo will make, and eliminate your AFM at the same time. A member over on Mr2oc.com ran this setup, but on a stock GEN3, and with some water/meth injection was able to pull in "355whp" at 29psi. He "suspects" 355whp based on previous dyno runs at lower boost levels and track times to his last 1/4 run....11.9

If you are pretty set on going full Standalone EMS, I would wait until you have everything you "need/want." Meaning if you have plans to run a bigger turbo, install cams, cam gears, Intake manifold (which you state you already have), port/polish head, etc........DO IT FIRST. If you have the EMS installed on your current setup, you will have to pay another 500-800 to have it retuned, (assuming you aren't tuning it yourself) if you upgrade ANY of these parts later.

If you are set on using this turbo, and dont want over 350whp.....I would go with the GEN3 electronics. You will have the reliability and ease of running a factory ECU, and enough fuel to support up too 30psi on this turbo.

[lagos]

The problem with the gen3 map setup is that it only understands psi, and not air flow like the afm flapper door.
While it has a ton of benefits over the 2nd gen system, one of its major drawbacks is that it will not be able to correctly scale itself for a bigger turbo like an afm would. So your timing and fuel might be thrown off by a bigger turbo that pushes more air out at __psi vs the ct20b at __psi.

If you can afford an AEM, then god bless you . That is the way to go.
My 2psi.

PS. first you said t25, but your profile says 2871?

This post has been edited by lagos: Dec 18, 2008 - 11:58 PM

[pittfirefighter]

i had a gt2871r, the oil feed line got pinched and the turbo ground the bearings down to bits and as you can imagine... destroyed... i have a t25 in there now that i had laying around just as a keeper since its the exact same exhaust side housing as the 52 trim that i had... til i get the 1300 for a new turbo... i am looking at a gt30 or i have seen the possibility of hopping up to a gt3582R...

355whp at 29 psi!? i dynoed at 305whp at 13 psi! and i should be pushing way over 350.... like i said... first step in a bunch of improvements

very true lagos... but one important fact is being overlooked in that assessment.... our flapper is toooo small for a larger turbo it creates a bottleneck and the turbo can't get the air it needs....

oh and if you're patient enough... the AEM only ran me a few hundred more than the 3rd gen ecu setup... including some extra sensors for the AEM

This post has been edited by pittfirefighter: Dec 19, 2008 - 7:59 AM

[Smaay]

yeah 29psi at that power seems low. but it is a smaller turbo. i made 545HP on a GT35R in my 7th gen, and its a smaller dsplacement. im looking to get the same power out of my 62-1 in my All-Trac

[lagos]

yeah 29psi at that power seems low. but it is a smaller turbo. i made 545HP on a GT35R in my 7th gen, and its a smaller dsplacement. im looking to get the same power out of my 62-1 in my All-Trac

you own that blue 7th gen?

[presure2]

yea, 355whp at that boost level is low, but we're talking a 20b, which isnt exactly in its efficency island at that high a boost level.
29psi on a 20b is a whole diffrent world compared to 29psi on a gt28rs or 35, or whatever other aftermarket turbo that guys use on the 3s you wanna throw out there.

more than anything its all about what your goals for the car are.
if your goal is sub 350whp, gen3 electronics, a decent turbo kit and moderate boost with WI will get you there.
anything above that, and standalone control is almost a given.

[pittfirefighter]

what was the spool like for the 35? i am worried that its going to take forever to build boost...

[_Jim_]

The problem with the gen3 map setup is that it only understands psi, and not air flow like the afm flapper door.
While it has a ton of benefits over the 2nd gen system, one of its major drawbacks is that it will not be able to correctly scale itself for a bigger turbo like an afm would. So your timing and fuel might be thrown off by a bigger turbo that pushes more air out at __psi vs the ct20b at __psi.

Art, where have you read this? I tried looking it up after you posted but I cant seem to find anything about this. I did find SEVERAL people running SB50 trim turbos setups on there stock GEN3 setups, tho.....and this is with no tuning.

Yes I understand that 355whp is low, maybe. I stated that he suspected around this number because he experienced WI faliure which lead to the demise of his motor, so he never got the chance to make it to the dyno. But based off previous dyno runs (315whp at 16psi) and track times at the HP, compared to 29psi and his last track time at this number, he assumed around 355whp. Boost wont make as much power per pound as it did at lower psi levels, because as Manny said, you go outside its efficiency range.

This post has been edited by _Jim_: Dec 19, 2008 - 3:59 PM

[lagos]

Its not something I read in a specific place. Its just how a map sensor works.
Im not saying you cant upgrade the turbo and run x amount of horsepower at x amount of boost on a 3rd gen ecu. You just have to keep in mind that a map sensor is just reporting the boost pressure, while an afm or a hotwire system actually monitor the air flow.

A gt35r will flow a lot more air into the engine then a ct20b will at the same boost level, but as far as the 3rd gen ecu is concerned, it thinks you're still running a ct20b.

This post has been edited by lagos: Dec 19, 2008 - 4:58 PM

[lagos]

wikipedia has a comparison between the different types of sensors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_flow_sensor

[pitcelica]

simply, because you are running MAP sensor, the fuel map in the stock 3rd gen ECU are Manifold Pressure vs RPM. So, if you are at 4500 RPM and 12 psi, in the fuel map, the injector pulse width (PW) will be, let's say, 15 milisecond.

So, at 4500 RPM and 12 psi :

-a GT35 turbo pushes let's say 200 CFM
-a CT20b turbo pushes let's say 180 CFM

So, the injected fuel will be the same in both situation (same cell in the fuel map), but the quantity of air will not be the same depending of the turbo.

So, because AFR is Air-Fuel Ratio, if :

-180 CFM for 15 ms PW = 11.0:1 AFR ----------->>>>> 180 CFM for 15 ms PW will equal maybe about 11.8:1 AFR.

So, if you want to keep a desired AFR and not lean out the engine, you need a kind of fuel management. But maybe not for under 350 whp because the AFR will not be thrown over 12.0:1 AFR and considered lean.

I hope this clarify a little for you guys.

P.S. All theses numbers are for example and none of them may be true. Do not use them as references.

Thanks

Sam

[easternpiro1]

@#$%* im running an emanage blue in my setup, but when i did the research i never heard that it was bad for toyota... also doc is aware of me running this setup. i think he would have forewarned me? anybody have any additional info about the bad match between the emanage and 3sgte?

[pittfirefighter]

hold up there easternpiro.... you're swapping in a 4th gen 3sgte... thats a whole different ballgame than the 2nd gen that I am dealing with.... i know Greddy even made a PnP harness for your engine... its got a bunch of differences compared to the 2nd gen including a completely different ignition system which is where the problems lie between the connection of the 3sgte and e-manage.... i personally don't know of any successes or downfalls with your engine as we all know the 4th gen hasn't been experimented with quite as much as lets say the 2nd or even 3rd gens.... good luck but i assume you should have a much easier time than all the posts i found with problems between **older** style toyota 3sgte engines and the e-manage...