What do you guys think, 1st gen 3sge head on a 5sfe? Options

[bccentaur3]

Of course I will be boosting this so technically it will be a 5sgte. But I was wondering what the pros and cons are with the 1st gen 3sge head? I like the intake manifold on the 3sge but I doubt it will flow as good as the 3sgte manifold.

I have access to dirt cheap 3sge heads and it would be an awesome project.

[RavenAegis45]

hmm well it might flow better than it's 3S-GTE counterpart i've read the 3S-GTE from the 4th gen Celica ran lean on cylinder 4 I think. But it was a good head design. the JDM models which weren't nearly as restricted by emissions as there USDM counterparts made impressive numbers. Although I guess it'll depend on how you set the head up. the 5S-FE does have different timing than the 3S-GE i think but good luck on your endeavors Im curious to see how it turns out

[bccentaur3]

Actually i might opt and get a 3rd gen 3sge head on the 5s block. This will start around spring.

[RavenAegis45]

Actually i might opt and get a 3rd gen 3sge head on the 5s block. This will start around spring.

Oh thats a different head altogether. All i really know is the 3rd gen doesn't have TVIS like the 1st gen. i've only seen diagrams but it has a dual stage intake manifold that goes over the valve cover. thats really all i know but i think other than the Intake and exhaust manifold the head is otherwise the same as the 3S-GTE but im sure theres treads on the differences somewhere on here

[trdproven]

Hardtarget i think has a 5sgte and his car is a monster.

[delusionz]

Would love to see what a 5S-GE does NA....

3S-GE is nice and revvy, goes like a bat out of hell between 5k and 7k but suffers from no torque down below

I read about a 7A-GE project once though and the guy mentioned that the low end torque was a good improvement over the 4A-GE but the engine was unable to sustain 6000 rpm and above (possibly due to that compression loss where he used the 4A-GE pistons in the 7A-FE block)

I looked at Ice23Q's dyno video (5S-GTE at 16PSI) and hes making on average 50 more HP at the wheels than some of the other 3S-GTE swapped FWD Celicas running similar boost levels, at 6600 RPM too (and still climbing even with the redline approaching.)

[Cuts_the_Pilot]

well worry no more.

a mate of mine has done it before, in a 162 and is in the process of doing so again, the bottom end was getting knackered in the old 5s, so he has got a low km one and using that, should be back togther this weekend. If anyone is interested in the build i could post the workings and whats required here in the near future.

went really well, torque down low was unbelieveable, 2nd gear takeoffs no worries at all.
just used stock ecu, stock injectors and afm etc, so all the ecu knew is that it needed more fuel for x ammount of revs.

the build he is doing now is going to be a bit better then the last, and using the metal hg (part number i got from a thread on here..thanks whoever post that). turbo will take place at a later stage.

[trdproven]

3s and 5s puts best of both worlds.

[bccentaur3]

Cuts, so your buddy ran the stock 3sfe ecu with a 3sge head? I don't get how all the ignition and timing worked?

[bdawgbp1]

Someone please let me know as I am getting ready to rebuild a 2nd gen 3S-GTE head to put on my 94 GT coupe (5S-FE block).

This post has been edited by bdawgbp1: Feb 23, 2009 - 4:03 AM

[Cuts_the_Pilot]

no he used the stock 3s-ge ecu running the 5s-ge combination.

they run afm so the ecu would just see there is more air going in, and give it more juice.

[bdawgbp1]

So are you saying I can use my stock 5S-FE ECU, injectors, sensors, etc as long as I get some kind of air/fuel management? Do I need something like an AEM system (lots of $) or will a piggyback (like the Venom 400) do the job? Thanks for all of the input as this is my first attempt at something like this.

[Cuts_the_Pilot]

going your way around you might be ok using your ecu. As the 5s ecu is already configured for a 2.2. Obviously the volumetric efficiency of the g head is a little better then the f head. But i dont think that should matter too much.

Use all 5s sensors and injectors etc and give it a go with the stock ecu, i think it'll be fine.

[bccentaur3]

how do you plan to use the 3sge distributor?

[Cuts_the_Pilot]

what would be the problem using it?

[bccentaur3]

5sfe ecu with 3sge ignition system?

[bdawgbp1]

So do I need to change the distributor also. Also I guess I'm gonna have to use the 3S-GTE intake manifold, throttle body, and exhaust also?

[Cuts_the_Pilot]

i havnt checked for sure but i cant see the dizzy's being too much diff electricly. check it out, if you need to run the 3sge dizzy.

are you using a 3sge head or 3sgte? use the gen1 3sge inlet mani if you have one.
ezhaust doesnt matter a fnck as long as its not restrictive.

i know gen1 3sge and gen2 3sgte both use a 55mm throttle body so use that, i reckon the 5s-fe will be 50mm but im not 100%.

here is a little bit my mate put in his thread about what you need to grind out of the head so the water jackets line up, and get the 5s-fe metal head gasket, make sure the block and head are micky mouse (ie resurfaced)

keep in mind the 5s-fe ecu wont be able to control the TVIS, get some sort of jacar rev switch to control it, should only cost you $30 or so....or get an aftermarket ecu.

"the spots in red are the only bits that a required to be ground out'
well anyway all is coming together quite well till i put the belt on rotated the crank realising that the cam wheels where then offset once returned not membering to change also the crank pulley aswell because 5s ones are bigger and also have one more tooth than the 3sge pully, alos i needed the 5sfe head gasket as well to account for the new carvings i have created but it is all very simple really just need to use most of the ge stuff when changing it all over, any more questions i am happy to answer if everything goes well"

another interesting bit from his thread.
"i used everthing that was external from the 3sge including the head, intake gear, exhaust mani, timing belt, harmonic balancer, crank pully, if there is anything else i will try and member but thats all im pretty sure i changed over."

keep in mind this was puttin a 5s block onto a gen1 3sge in a 4th gen (so the 3sge was the factory engine)



This post has been edited by Cuts_the_Pilot: Feb 24, 2009 - 8:18 AM

[bdawgbp1]

Thanks for the info. I will be using a 3S-GTE head. Any difference from using the GTE versus the GE head? I plan on getting a 3S-GTE intake mani and throttle body. Do you know about the crank, pulleys or anything else that will need to be swapped. You guys are a blessing. Thanks again.

[HARDTARGET]

Thanks for the info. I will be using a 3S-GTE head. Any difference from using the GTE versus the GE head? I plan on getting a 3S-GTE intake mani and throttle body. Do you know about the crank, pulleys or anything else that will need to be swapped. You guys are a blessing. Thanks again.

The timing belt pulley on the crank need's to be from a 3s engine, very important.