Gen 3 Vs Gen 4, 3S-GTE Options

[fran]

Hello!!! i read about the diferences, upgrades ++ about 2gen vs 3gen 3S-GTE`s but i didnt read anything about the 4Gen 3S-GTE. Anyones knows the diferences betwen those engines? what parts are the same, what performance parts cant be use on the 4gen?

[domyz]

3rd gen intercooling(water to air) is by far better than 4th gen (air to air)
4th gen got the ct20b (same turbo) in one piece cast with the exhaust manifold (less good for maintenance)

for other things, 4th gen has a side feed intake manifold, and a completely different fuel map for 265hp.
The cylinder wall is thicker than the first rev 3 3sgte which were ameliorated in 1997

This post has been edited by domyz: May 25, 2009 - 12:58 PM

[Nial]

4th gen has a higher compression ratio which makes it harder to run higher than stock levels of boost

This post has been edited by Nial: May 30, 2009 - 4:27 PM

[reko]

4th gens use coil pack = you'll have to run a stand alone

[3WayStunna]

4th gens use coil pack = you'll have to run a stand alone

Maybe im just alittle tired, or maybe i read something wrong...but why would you say that a standalone would be required, JUST because of coilpacks? Why wouldnt the caldina ECU just be wired in to run it like it naturally does ? (by it i mean the engine)

Anywho, to actually contribute to this thread, unlike the other 3sgtes (2nd gen/3rd gen) you cant swap camshafts up, like using a 3rd gen camshaft with the 4th gen 3sgte. Thats because the 4th gen comes with the OH-so-great VVTI...err whatever...

[pitcelica]

Anywho, to actually contribute to this thread, unlike the other 3sgtes (2nd gen/3rd gen) you cant swap camshafts up, like using a 3rd gen camshaft with the 4th gen 3sgte. Thats because the 4th gen comes with the OH-so-great VVTI...err whatever...

This is false, gen 4 3SGTE does not use VVTi. Only gen 4 Beams 3SGE engine does. The gen 4 3sgte use the same exhaust camshaft as other gen 2-gen 3 engines. The intake camshaft is different because it has no distributor to to be bolten on the end. At the end of the camsfhaft, there is a trigger arm for the cam postion sensor (for the coil-on-plug system).

For the ECU, just keep the stock ST215 caldina ECU unless you want more than 350 whp.

I really do not understand your post about 'coil-on-plug = stand alone' ??? Please explain your though!

Sam

[3WayStunna]

I stand corrected

[easternpiro1]

here are some more differences i keep laying around for such discussions....

-Adjustable cam gear (AEM, Fidanza, HKS, OBX, ATS). Any cam gear kit for 3SGTE will fit.

-XS Power SSAC ST205 manifold/downpipe used with a ST205 turbo will convert the one-piece ST215 manifold/turbo to a nicely upgradeable ST205 Ct20b turbo kit. You can add to this a t3/t4 adaptor and you will be able to use a t3/t4 turbo (like I did on my ST215 swap)

-Pistons, rods, crankshaft are all the same for ST205 and ST215

-The injectors are the same as the ST205 one, so, if there is a 3rd gen fuel system available, it will fit the ST215 too.

-The exhaust camshaft is the same as the ST205 one. So an HKS 264/272 exhaust camshaft will bolt on. For the intake, I don't know if the HKS one would fit. Next year, when money will allow it, I'll buy a HKS264/264 camshaft kit and I'll know if the intake camshaft fit or not.

-You can remove the top ATA intercooler and add a FMIC as easy as any other 3SGTE.

The alternator can be replaced with one from any 5SFE or 3SGTE, along with the a/c compressor and the p/s pump (though the 4th gen p/s pump uses an electronic sending unit for the idle-up).

Bear in mind that the 4th gen injectors are also high-impedance, and no resistor pack is used.
-pistons
-connecting rods
-crankshaft
-exhaust camshaft
-cam gears
-timing belt
-water pump
-Intake manifold (bolt pattern are the same)
-fuel rail and injectors from ST215 are 540cc and top feed, so they have the same output rating as gen3, but they are top feed instead of side-feed(gen3)
-exhaust manifold (same bolt pattern)(but the 4th gen exhaust manifold is casted with the turbine housing)
-MAT sensor (manifold air temp)
-MAP sensor
-crank pulley
-oil pans
-oil pickup system
-knock sensor
-ac compressor
-alternator

[pitcelica]

-The injectors are the same as the ST205 one, so, if there is a 3rd gen fuel system available, it will fit the ST215 too.

This is not completely true. The ST215 has 540cc/min injectors like the 3rd gen ST205, but they are top-feed instead of side-feed and high impedance instead of low impedance.

So, it's not really true that a 3rd gen fuel system will fit on a ST215. I dont know if you can bolt a 3rd gen ST205 fuel rail on a ST215 head and vice versa. It need to be verified before assuming.

The rest is ok

[Marchius]

One question - will 3rd gen engine gaskets fit to 4th gen gaskets? Or there are some of them different?

I'm making full rebuild of my 3SGTE rev.4 from ST246 and need to order all gaskets, including metal head gasket.

[easternpiro1]

I wonder though... why did toyota go with different rods for the 4th gen over the 3rd (other than faster response time)


This post has been edited by easternpiro1: Oct 10, 2013 - 5:23 PM

[Smaay]

are you sure about the high impedance injectors? every other turbo engine toyota has uses low impedance

[presure2]

Yup, the 4th gen has high impedance injectors.

[delusionz]

so does it bolt in with the same 3 bolts? sounds like a good upgrade, this means eliminating a resistor pack?

[match220]

The alternator on the 4th gen is larger with a higher amp output (not sure of the number right now). I'm running individual coils on my gen3 I bought a gen4 alternator (yes it bolts right on), so at higher RPM i expect there to be more of an amp draw than the distributor with 1 coil. I'm not sure if this is the reason that toyota put the larger alt in though.

[pitcelica]

The alternator on the 4th gen is larger with a higher amp output (not sure of the number right now). I'm running individual coils on my gen3 I bought a gen4 alternator (yes it bolts right on), so at higher RPM i expect there to be more of an amp draw than the distributor with 1 coil. I'm not sure if this is the reason that toyota put the larger alt in though.

Why COP should require more amps than distributor? It shouldn't. Each setup requires the same number of coil charge/discharge for a given RPM. The only difference is that the coil charge duty is splitted to 4 different coils. This mean that each coil has more time to cool down between each charge/discharge event and this lead to less wear/coil change. The total energy drawn (power/amps) is the same between distributor and COP.

I'm not sure the gen4 alt is bigger because of the COP, who know, maybe the Caldina has more body electrical features than a Celica.

Sam

This post has been edited by pitcelica: Dec 15, 2013 - 10:27 AM

[match220]

The alternator on the 4th gen is larger with a higher amp output (not sure of the number right now). I'm running individual coils on my gen3 I bought a gen4 alternator (yes it bolts right on), so at higher RPM i expect there to be more of an amp draw than the distributor with 1 coil. I'm not sure if this is the reason that toyota put the larger alt in though.

Why COP should require more amps than distributor? It shouldn't. Each setup requires the same number of coil charge/discharge for a given RPM. The only difference is that the coil charge duty is splitted to 4 different coils. This mean that each coil has more time to cool down between each charge/discharge event and this lead to less wear/coil change. The total energy drawn (power/amps) is the same between distributor and COP.

I'm not sure the gen4 alt is bigger because of the COP, who know, maybe the Caldina has more body electrical features than a Celica.

Sam

What you are saying sounds like it would be true logically, but only for CDI style coils. TCI coils are different (what is in most Toyotas that I know of). There are two main ignition coil types that are in use in production vehicles, CDI and TCI or Capacitive and Transistor style. CDI coils build up a charge and fire only when they receive a high-voltage signal and have no charge unless it is given a signal. TCI coils (what Toyota uses) build up a charge when they aren't in use, and the coil fires when it receives the signal. Comparing a CDI to a TCI coil on a distributed system doesn't change much. But in a TCI 4-coil system, 3 of the coils have a charge built up when 1 is firing. This is why I installed individual TCI coils in my car and you definitely notice a difference at higher RPMs since the coils have more time to build up a hot spark. Individual CDI coils with a CDI controller will draw about the same amount of amperage as a single coil on a distributed system, so what you say would be true in CDI systems.

With that said, I have not been able to find out online whether or not the 4th gen coils are TCI or CDI. If you want I can ask another tuner friend and whenever he gets back to me I can post an update in here. I never looked into it since I used Audi coils. You can sometimes tell by the pinout on the coils, if they only have 2 pins then I would guess they are CDI, and TCI coils will have 3 pins (unless it uses the coil body as the ground, like our stock 3sgte did, then expect one less pin). But this isn't an accurate way to tell, just what I have noticed on cars/motorcycles that have CDI vs TCI setups. There are other features built into coils like ion sensing and built in individual igniters (some VW/Audi TCI coils) that would change the number of pins, making the pin-count method unreliable.

Considering Toyota uses TCI style coils with their distributed systems and also considering the size of the alternator, I would guess that the individual coils on the newer engines are also TCI. Because of this, I believe the 4th gen is TCI, but that is just a guess. I don't see any electrical systems in the 4th gen that would require such a large alternator, unless it is running TCI coils. The larger alt will keep the 4 coils from draining the battery when driving long distances.

This post has been edited by match220: Jan 7, 2014 - 7:44 AM

[easternpiro1]

Larger alternator? Im using one from the 5sfe....

[MR2fanatic]

We have alot of information on the gen4 3sgte along with a bunch of pictures (in an MR2) here: http://www.primemr2.com/gen4-3sgte.html

[JasonTX]

We have alot of information on the gen4 3sgte along with a bunch of pictures (in an MR2) here: http://www.primemr2.com/gen4-3sgte.html

these guys site and their posts on the rav and mr2 forums are very insightful if your considering the gen4. i wanted to go this route(and actually talked to them about it) but just ran across the gen3 motor at a great price.