Headers make a difference?, Headers? "High Flow" cats? some one help! 94 ST Options

[mgnt232]

I Have a 1994 Toyota Celica ST 1.8L 7A-FE
I recently had a Magnaflow "catback" installed.

I was looking into getting headers when i came across something interesting.
I saw that in order for the headers to give you car the extra power, you need to have a high flow catalytic converter. I am not sure if this is true, but i believe it is because the extra flow, from the headers would be slowed by the restrictive stock cat? am i correct? (the cat back is not restricted any more, with my new magnaflow exhaust system)
And if this is correct, would these two things match up?

The cat i am looking at ( http://www.planetmagnaflow.com/mfcatsearch...catmodel=CELICA ) !*The first direct fit one*!

The headers i am looking at ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...alenotsupported )

Are headers worth it? do i need the new cat? would it be better? with the new cat, is it worth it at all? ive never seen the difference, but im assuming alot of you have, so any one with any info, please give me some answers. thanks!-

[Mstoochn]

the cat is great, but ebay haeders you gota be careful with haha i no my magnaflow system is suiting you well, hi-flow cat is always a good idea, research headers though.

cat is a must for optimal gains and top end.

also i've seen a few direct fit headers out there, i would look at those (using existing hardware for sensors)

check: http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=68576

i predict 10hp

This post has been edited by Mstoochn: Jul 26, 2009 - 1:57 PM

[match220]

headers do make a difference in more areas than sound..just to kind of give you an easy technical explanation..stock headers are designed to basically just put the exhaust out of the engine with no science behind it, aftermarket headers do it in a more organized way so it gives you more performance, factoring in exhaust pulse width, thermodynamics and flow equalization. I could type paragraphs on this that would probably bore you with explanations on the science behind it, plus I don't want to type all of it out, but that's the basics. Just stay away from stainless steel aftermarket headers, people usually make a mistake getting those and they don't even know. Stainless steel dissipates too much heat, and when the exhaust cools down, the molecules slow down, which makes them harder to push out of the exhaust system, so it's basically the same thing as having pipes with smaller diameter. This is why people get titanuim exhaust kits, or ceramic coated kits, (cast iron is probably the best thing to get for your money though, it is full of air bubbles that hold in heat in the system) these kits hold the heat in so the exhaust stays hot to the end of the pipes, that makes it easier to push out of the pipes, the faster it gets out, the easier the pistons move up in the engine and the less backpressure you have on your engine. A well designed exhaust system will free up a lot of power in a stock engine, and give a sweet sounding engine, also don't go too large on the exhaust piping. I'm not going to get into that, but it's another mistake people make on N/A 4 cyls, they don't need 3 inch diameter piping!

This post has been edited by match220: Jul 27, 2009 - 2:27 AM

[Mstoochn]

uh, hes not buying an exhaust system, hes alrdy got one 2.25 piping.

[k-weaver]

Getting a Header is totally worth it, I have one on my 96 GT and noticed a difference right away. Don't get me wrong, it didn't add much but enough to notice (maybe 3-5hp). The header I have was a cat delete and since mine is OBDII I have two cats (just one since the header). The one left is not a high flow, I suspect if I removed it or replaced with a high flow it would add a noticeable increase in power (maybe 2-3hp?).

So bottom line, getting the header is totally worth it IMO. Just do your homework first, ask around and see what other people have gotten that did and didn't work. I know you don't have a GT but here are some issues I had when I got mine:

1.) Using stock gasket (metal one) I had a leak (had to use an aftermarket one)
2.) Bolts that it came with didn't fit in the stock flex pipe (bolts too big for the hole)
3.) Unable to pass smog in CA (because i'm missing a CAT, I have to swap it every two years)
4.) The shiny stainless steel slowly changed colors from bright gold, to blue, purple, then a nasty mix of all three

[presure2]

headers do make a difference in more areas than sound..just to kind of give you an easy technical explanation..stock headers are designed to basically just put the exhaust out of the engine with no science behind it, aftermarket headers do it in a more organized way so it gives you more performance, factoring in exhaust pulse width, thermodynamics and flow equalization. I could type paragraphs on this that would probably bore you with explanations on the science behind it, plus I don't want to type all of it out, but that's the basics. Just stay away from stainless steel aftermarket headers, people usually make a mistake getting those and they don't even know. Stainless steel dissipates too much heat, and when the exhaust cools down, the molecules slow down, which makes them harder to push out of the exhaust system, so it's basically the same thing as having pipes with smaller diameter. This is why people get titanuim exhaust kits, or ceramic coated kits, (cast iron is probably the best thing to get for your money though, it is full of air bubbles that hold in heat in the system) these kits hold the heat in so the exhaust stays hot to the end of the pipes, that makes it easier to push out of the pipes, the faster it gets out, the easier the pistons move up in the engine and the less backpressure you have on your engine. A well designed exhaust system will free up a lot of power in a stock engine, and give a sweet sounding engine, also don't go too large on the exhaust piping. I'm not going to get into that, but it's another mistake people make on N/A 4 cyls, they don't need 3 inch diameter piping!

stay away from stainless for headers?
are you serious?
LMAO
burns stainless, who supplies some of the best racing teams out there says otherwise.
http://www.burnsstainless.com/TechArticles...ory/theory.html

[Mstoochn]

headers do make a difference in more areas than sound..just to kind of give you an easy technical explanation..stock headers are designed to basically just put the exhaust out of the engine with no science behind it, aftermarket headers do it in a more organized way so it gives you more performance, factoring in exhaust pulse width, thermodynamics and flow equalization. I could type paragraphs on this that would probably bore you with explanations on the science behind it, plus I don't want to type all of it out, but that's the basics. Just stay away from stainless steel aftermarket headers, people usually make a mistake getting those and they don't even know. Stainless steel dissipates too much heat, and when the exhaust cools down, the molecules slow down, which makes them harder to push out of the exhaust system, so it's basically the same thing as having pipes with smaller diameter. This is why people get titanuim exhaust kits, or ceramic coated kits, (cast iron is probably the best thing to get for your money though, it is full of air bubbles that hold in heat in the system) these kits hold the heat in so the exhaust stays hot to the end of the pipes, that makes it easier to push out of the pipes, the faster it gets out, the easier the pistons move up in the engine and the less backpressure you have on your engine. A well designed exhaust system will free up a lot of power in a stock engine, and give a sweet sounding engine, also don't go too large on the exhaust piping. I'm not going to get into that, but it's another mistake people make on N/A 4 cyls, they don't need 3 inch diameter piping!

stay away from stainless for headers?
are you serious?
LMAO
burns stainless, who supplies some of the best racing teams out there says otherwise.
http://www.burnsstainless.com/TechArticles...ory/theory.html

more like stay away from ceramic

[match220]

stay away from stainless for headers?
are you serious?
LMAO
burns stainless, who supplies some of the best racing teams out there says otherwise.
http://www.burnsstainless.com/TechArticles...ory/theory.html

Yes I'm serious, aside from Burns Stainless, most performance headers and exhausts systems you see will be fully titanium, ceramic coated, or even sometimes cast iron. Then you have one company making stainless headers ? Seriously man, think about the science behind this, don't look at what a company is making so that they can sell to people. If I thought that way then I would think, "yeah, Dodge makes amazing cars because they make them for the American public and the most of the cars and trucks that the military uses are Dodge, so they have to make a quality product". No, Dodge sucks, the government has bailed them out 4 times and continues to use their vehicles, they are cheap, electrical nightmares, that depreciate very fast and most people don't buy after it's been used for 5 years even though they are 5 times cheaper than a Toyota with the same miles and wear. Anyway, my point is, don't look at a company and base your answer on what they make and who they make it for and try to prove me wrong, nothing on that page disproved what I was saying earlier, in some ways it complimented it. Now maybe I exaggerated a little bit in saying "never use stainless", it's decent at holding heat, I was just trying to stress that there are other better options than stainless: titanium, ceramic coating...etc. Besides, for stainless to be better at retaining heat it has to be thicker. So honestly, I don't care if burnsstainless makes headers for John Force, I know what happens in an exhaust system. Maybe they use thicker stainless steel. I can talk exhaust flow dynamics all day. But just a quick explanation of what I'm saying is what I've already said that makes sense, and frankly I don't understand why you don't see it the same way I do. Stainless releases heat through the walls more than titanium and the other options out there, because of this, the molecules slow down, become more dense, and get harder to push out of the exhaust system. The cylinder can only push exhaust out of the pipes as fast as how much restriction it has. That's all I'm saying, I don't want to argue, I just want to clarify my point.

[Mstoochn]

stay away from stainless for headers?
are you serious?
LMAO
burns stainless, who supplies some of the best racing teams out there says otherwise.
http://www.burnsstainless.com/TechArticles...ory/theory.html

Yes I'm serious, aside from Burns Stainless, most performance headers and exhausts systems you see will be fully titanium, ceramic coated, or even sometimes cast iron. Then you have one company making stainless headers ? Seriously man, think about the science behind this, don't look at what a company is making so that they can sell to people. If I thought that way then I would think, "yeah, Dodge makes amazing cars because they make them for the American public and the most of the cars and trucks that the military uses are Dodge, so they have to make a quality product". No, Dodge sucks, the government has bailed them out 4 times and continues to use their vehicles, they are cheap, electrical nightmares, that depreciate very fast and most people don't buy after it's been used for 5 years even though they are 5 times cheaper than a Toyota with the same miles and wear. Anyway, my point is, don't look at a company and base your answer on what they make and who they make it for and try to prove me wrong, nothing on that page disproved what I was saying earlier, in some ways it complimented it. Now maybe I exaggerated a little bit in saying "never use stainless", it's decent at holding heat, I was just trying to stress that there are other better options than stainless: titanium, ceramic coating...etc. Besides, for stainless to be better at retaining heat it has to be thicker. So honestly, I don't care if burnsstainless makes headers for John Force, I know what happens in an exhaust system. Maybe they use thicker stainless steel. I can talk exhaust flow dynamics all day. But just a quick explanation of what I'm saying is what I've already said that makes sense, and frankly I don't understand why you don't see it the same way I do. Stainless releases heat through the walls more than titanium and the other options out there, because of this, the molecules slow down, become more dense, and get harder to push out of the exhaust system. The cylinder can only push exhaust out of the pipes as fast as how much restriction it has. That's all I'm saying, I don't want to argue, I just want to clarify my point.

Most exhaust systems are stainless steal??? the only titanium exhausts out there are Titanium Mufflers.

what the ****?!

[match220]

actually, in the best motorcycle aftermarket systems, the full exhaust system is titanium, specifically for the reason that I'm mentioning, people trying to pull every little bit of power out of it as they can. And I'm more of a motorcycle guy, so I've seen more aftermarket bike headers than car ones, sorry for that assumption carrying over into aftermarket car headers

I won't disagree with you that most systems are stainless, anyone can see that, this is probably because stainless is cheaper to manufacture than the other systems and it's also more viable for the buyer since that makes it about $500 cheaper, and most buyers don't know the thermodynamics behind an exhaust system anyway, they just buy what looks better. With the drag headers, I can understand them being stainless instead of something else because the full exhaust system on a dragster is 3 feet long (ish), so the exhaust doesn't have long enough to cool down. However on a car, you have 10 - 12 feet of exhaust, and if that is all stainless you WILL release heat, and lose performance in a street car setup. I don't care what most people sell, this is science, and in the end, science prevails (except with evolution )

[match220]

I hope you aren't getting angry with my rebuttals, I just don't want you to see what everyone else is selling or using and think that is the best option. There is a reason why dragsters use stainless, there is also a reason why they still have distributors on their cars when distributor-less ignition systems are faaaaaaar better than distributed systems. They use distributed systems because they are simple and easy to troubleshoot and repair before a race, or if something goes wrong it's easy to fix. Maybe they use stainless because they've test it on a dyno against titanium or ceramic coated setups and the difference is only 5 - 10 hp on a 8000 hp nitromethane dragster, since not much heat is lost in the 3 ft exhaust system they have, they don't bother with spending $1k more on a header that will give them 10hp, or 50 hp, or whatever, in the end what's 8000 hp compared to 8050 or even 8100 hp?

All i'm saying is, on a street car, stainless steel releases too much heat on the whole exhaust system, I have stainless 2.5 inch piping on my car, because it's cheap. People do advise against using stainless exhaust manifolds on a turbo application though, this has to do with the expansion of the metal dues to high heat and the welds cracking because of the properties of the stainless steel.

Anyway man, we cool? I don't want to get on anyone's bad side..

[presure2]

I hope you aren't getting angry with my rebuttals, I just don't want you to see what everyone else is selling or using and think that is the best option. There is a reason why dragsters use stainless, there is also a reason why they still have distributors on their cars when distributor-less ignition systems are faaaaaaar better than distributed systems. They use distributed systems because they are simple and easy to troubleshoot and repair before a race, or if something goes wrong it's easy to fix. Maybe they use stainless because they've test it on a dyno against titanium or ceramic coated setups and the difference is only 5 - 10 hp on a 8000 hp nitromethane dragster, since not much heat is lost in the 3 ft exhaust system they have, they don't bother with spending $1k more on a header that will give them 10hp, or 50 hp, or whatever, in the end what's 8000 hp compared to 8050 or even 8100 hp?

All i'm saying is, on a street car, stainless steel releases too much heat on the whole exhaust system, I have stainless 2.5 inch piping on my car, because it's cheap. People do advise against using stainless exhaust manifolds on a turbo application though, this has to do with the expansion of the metal dues to high heat and the welds cracking because of the properties of the stainless steel.

Anyway man, we cool? I don't want to get on anyone's bad side..

you arnt gonna see anyone making a header out of ti, cause its too expensive, and difficult to work with.
hell, you can make a header out of inconel too, but you dont see anyone but the most $$$ builders even USING inconel.
for our cars, you arnt gonna find much better than a crappy steel header, thats crapily coated at best.
hell, just the collectors for a proper header will cost you ~450$ if you wanted to do it right.
and thats in stainless. forget TI or inconel, it just isnt worth the cost.

[match220]

Titanium GSXR exhaust

IF it were mass produced for our cars, this is the price we would expect.

[Spider77]

Titanium GSXR exhaust

IF it were mass produced for our cars, this is the price we would expect.

I can think of a better way to spend 11grand. Especially a 11grand exhaust set up.

This post has been edited by Spider77: Jul 28, 2009 - 5:00 PM

[95CelicaST]

Ummmmm 11 grand is $11,000.

Eleven hundred is $1,100

[Mstoochn]

Ummmmm 11 grand is $11,000.

Eleven hundred is $1,100

[Spider77]

Yeah, you know what, your right. I can still think of a better way to spend 11hundred. Been one of those days.

[mgnt232]

I Have a 1994 Toyota Celica ST 1.8L 7A-FE
I recently had a Magnaflow "catback" installed.

I was looking into getting headers when i came across something interesting.
I saw that in order for the headers to give you car the extra power, you need to have a high flow catalytic converter. I am not sure if this is true, but i believe it is because the extra flow, from the headers would be slowed by the restrictive stock cat? am i correct? (the cat back is not restricted any more, with my new magnaflow exhaust system)
And if this is correct, would these two things match up?

The cat i am looking at ( http://www.planetmagnaflow.com/mfcatsearch...catmodel=CELICA ) !*The first direct fit one*!

The headers i am looking at ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...alenotsupported )

Are headers worth it? do i need the new cat? would it be better? with the new cat, is it worth it at all? ive never seen the difference, but im assuming alot of you have, so any one with any info, please give me some answers. thanks!-

Any one find me a header? lol

[Random_Stranger]

Here's a stupid n00b question. I noticed when people get headers, they never have a cover on them, but either bare or they are wrapped. So my question is, can you still use the shield on them that comes on the car OEM? I noticed people use them on turbo application cars, so if your cat back system is 2.5", can you just bolt those on? Because now I am thinking about looking into this, or I might just wait until I actually become swapped.