The engine's in 7th and 6th gen Celica, Why did they change?? Options

[BonzaiCelica]

id say dont try to make a rwd celica its not worth it. Instead find yourself an ae86 corolla and swap the blacktop into that. Might make the front end heavier but the power will be really great. check out the beams forums. just type "beams owners group" on the google search engine and you'll see a few members with beams engines in their corolla's

[BonzaiCelica]

I was looking on specs for the 2zz-ge and its seems as though the JDM 2zz-ge produces 187 hp while the European 2zz-ge produces 189 hp? hmm thats funny.

anyways. Do honda's b16, b18, k20, and f20 and 2zz-ge engines are capable of weighing so little because of the fact that they have lift on them, or is it just the material that was made when producing the engine. like the 2zz-ge is all aluminum block or something like that. which one weighs less 2zz-ge or k20?

Do you think toyota would of been able to implement a 6th gen 2.0 liter 3S-GE Dual VVT-i, fwd engine for the 7th Gen Celica producing lets say 210 hp in japan and 195 hp in usdm if they really wanted to, back when they were creating the 7th gen celica in early 1999? And the weight of the engine would be somewhere around the same weight as the 2zz-ge.

do you guys think the redtop was a hand built motor?

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Nov 26, 2013 - 12:57 AM

[Edophus]

I was looking on specs for the 2zz-ge and its seems as though the JDM 2zz-ge produces 187 hp while the European 2zz-ge produces 189 hp? hmm thats funny.

anyways. Do honda's b16, b18, k20, and f20 and 2zz-ge engines are capable of weighing so little because of the fact that they have lift on them, or is it just the material that was made when producing the engine. like the 2zz-ge is all aluminum block or something like that. which one weighs less 2zz-ge or k20?

Do you think toyota would of been able to implement a 5th gen 2.0 ltr 3S-GE dual vvt-i, fwd engine for the 7th Gen Celica producing lets say 210 hp in japan and 195 hp in usdm if they really wanted to, back when they were creating the 7th gen celica in early 1999? And the weight of the engine would be somewhere around the same weight as the 2zz-ge.

do you guys think the redtop was a hand built motor?

2zz is quite bit lighter than the k20 i think, i dont think any of those honda motors are close to the 2zz in terms of lightness, its purely down to the dimensions and materials used, its based on the 1zz which was designed with being as light as possible in mind.

I think if toyota wanted to they could have easily created 200+ bhp 2 litre if they wanted, the 2zz was a bit of an oddity and i suspect a one off really, its done well for them but we'll not see a replacement for it i dont think, toyotas next engines will most likely be infenitly variable lift and timing, there current 2 litre has that, but its not performance orientated at about 160bhp output. Its sad to say they just havent bothered making a performance engine in the 1.6 to 2 litre class like the old 4a-ge, or 3s-ge, its not a cause they cant, its just they wont. I think if they had revised the 3s-ge with dual vvti and an aluminium block it would be a lot lighter, but also its worth remembering that the gearbox for these engines is a bit bigger, the engines itself are bigger because of wider bore spacing etc, so it would not be possible to get it as light as the 2zz as a finished package, but probably close.

no i dont think the redtop was handbuilt, they were produced in large numbers, dont forget the redtop, or greytop, which is identical bar the exhaust manifold, sold in large numbers around the world in the celica, mr2, rav4, and caldina, far to many for it to have been hand built or hand finished.

[BonzaiCelica]

hmm yea ok I see, eeh pity to see where toyota had gone to, when things were going so great with the 4age and 3sge

oh I dont think you answered my question, does the fact that the 2zz-ge has lift make it a lighter than than lets say the vvt-i 1zz-ge which does not have lift.

I know that the 2zz-ge is a slighter heaving engine becuase of the 6 speed manual transmission attached it it.

but 1zz-fe vs 2zzge which is a lighter motor?

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Mar 31, 2010 - 1:01 PM

[Edophus]

hmm yea ok I see, eeh pity to see where toyota had gone to, when things were going so great with the 4age and 3sge

oh I dont think you answered my question, does the fact that the 2zz-ge has lift make it a lighter than than lets say the vvt-i 1zz-ge which does not have lift.

I know that the 2zz-ge is a slighter heaving engine becuase of the 6 speed manual transmission attached it it.

but 1zz-fe vs 2zzge which is a lighter motor?

not really lift adds weight to an engine as you have extra valvetrain parts, i dont know the exact weights of the 1zz but i'd say its going to be lighter because it has less valvetrain, but is otherwise very similar, I think the service weight of the 2zz is 120kg, would think the 1zz is very similar but slightly less, for comparison a 1mz is about 163kg, and a 3s-ge beams about 155ish.

[BonzaiCelica]

hmm i see alot of guys swapping in 3S-GE Blacktop into their celica st182. what did they have to change to make this possible, do they still use the altezza ecu?? Swapping the head from the blacktop, making a custom valve cover painted in the red thats painted on the 3sge redtop and the same pistons used in the blacktop with an aftermarket ecu... would the torque be the same as a blacktop beams??

Recently updated video from japan about a few months back of his SS-III ST202 vs an MR-S fitted with a 2zz-ge im assuming at tsukuba. I also asked him if he has any videos of him versus an Integra Type R DC2 and then i translated it using google and left a comment...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4OUOe8u1e0

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Aug 19, 2010 - 1:31 AM

[Edophus]

hmm i see alot of guys swapping in 3S-GE Blacktop into their celica st182. what did they have to change to make this possible, do they still use the altezza ecu?? Swapping the head from the blacktop, making a custom valve cover painted in the red thats painted on the 3sge redtop and the same pistons used in the blacktop with an aftermarket ecu... would the torque be the same as a blacktop beams??

Recently updated video from japan about a few months back of his SS-III ST202 vs an MR-S fitted with a 2zz-ge im assuming at tsukuba. I also asked him if he has any videos of him versus an Integra Type R DC2 and then i translated it using google and left a comment...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4OUOe8u1e0

thats my current project, blacktop beams into an st182 for track and fun purposes, maybe it was you who asked recently on youtube how i did it?

[Smaay]

hmm yea ok I see, eeh pity to see where toyota had gone to, when things were going so great with the 4age and 3sge

oh I dont think you answered my question, does the fact that the 2zz-ge has lift make it a lighter than than lets say the vvt-i 1zz-ge which does not have lift.

I know that the 2zz-ge is a slighter heaving engine becuase of the 6 speed manual transmission attached it it.

but 1zz-fe vs 2zzge which is a lighter motor?

what does transmission have to do with engien weight? and if you really want to nickle and dime it, thats the only difference between the 5 speed and 6 speed. about 3 or 4 pounds. they have the same housing and same differential.

the 2ZZ definatly weighs more than a 1ZZ the head of the 2ZZ is almost twice as wide as the 1ZZ. block weights are going to be very close, but im going to guess that the 2ZZ head is 30% heavier than the 1ZZ

[RavenAegis45]

hmm i see alot of guys swapping in 3S-GE Blacktop into their celica st182. what did they have to change to make this possible, do they still use the altezza ecu?? Swapping the head from the blacktop, making a custom valve cover painted in the red thats painted on the 3sge redtop and the same pistons used in the blacktop with an aftermarket ecu... would the torque be the same as a blacktop beams??

Recently updated video from japan about a few months back of his SS-III ST202 vs an MR-S fitted with a 2zz-ge im assuming at tsukuba. I also asked him if he has any videos of him versus an Integra Type R DC2 and then i translated it using google and left a comment...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4OUOe8u1e0

thats my current project, blacktop beams into an st182 for track and fun purposes, maybe it was you who asked recently on youtube how i did it?

Ummm hate to burst your bubble but from the look of that Intake Manifold, thats the so called Grey top BEAMS 3S-GE, which is more similar to the Red Top but i believe it has a different exhaust manifold and is detuned slightly? but it definitely doesn't look like a true Black Top

[BonzaiCelica]

haha yea thats what I was just going to say. well I still have on answer to my question yet.

ok thanks for clearing that up about the 2zz-ge. hmm ive never seen a k20 into a 7th gen celica i was looking for a video on youtube but had no luck with it....

also what i dont get is why have several people with st182 decided to swap in 3sge blacktops instead of the redtop. I mean the it would be a hell of a lot cheaper right, oh well i'll have to do some research on my own

oh and actually raven yes that is a true blacktop well at least i think it is by the way the header manifold looks, but at the same time the intake manifold is black why is that shouldnt it be red or better yet silver looking like the stock blacktop beams?? or wiat hold up a minute, it just hit me as I'm currently looking for how to convert a blacktop into fwd...

would you be able to buy a 3sge beams blacktop and put the redtop intake manifold on the blacktop engine???

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Aug 19, 2010 - 8:06 PM

[Rusty]

blacktop engine with a greytop manifold, since the blacktop goes the other way. Hows the project going btw Edophus? I haven't checked your progress thread in a while.

[Edophus]

Ummm hate to burst your bubble but from the look of that Intake Manifold, thats the so called Grey top BEAMS 3S-GE, which is more similar to the Red Top but i believe it has a different exhaust manifold and is detuned slightly? but it definitely doesn't look like a true Black Top

its ok my bubble remains intact , its a blacktop alright, look at where the altenator would normally be, thats a water way from the head to the radiator, that part is different to the other beams, as is the oil drain at the other side of the head its in a slightly different position, and also no waterways at the gearbox side of the engine , the intake manifold is from a red top i've just painted it black.

Its basically a blacktop engine, redtop intake manifold/throttlebody, redtop oil pickup and baffle plate, and redtop sump. The timing belt tensioner has been swapped with a redtop tensioner aswell.


This was me mocking up the setup for the altenator as its tucked down the back of the block now, same position as the mr2, it can still be changed once the engine is in position it just takes a little longer. Excuse the mess it was an old barn i was working in and very hard to keep clean!


that was when the engine first went in, quite clearly a blacktop from these pictures, i had to swap the brake master cylinder for a gen 6 ss3 (actually the old one my old ss3!) in order for it to clear the vvti gear.


One of the things that makes this possible without creating a custom mount on the timing belt side is the gen 5 has a different engine mount there to the gen6, which would clash with the exhaust vvti gear, also i removed power steering and abs so i was able to route the water lines at that side of the engine bay.

Bonzai, i dont think there is that many, the only other blacktop st182 i know of is in germany, i know of a few mr2's though, but maybe there has been more since i last looked. Its not a lot of point in doing this over the redtop, but the blacktop has a lighter valvetrain intended to rev higher, and it makes a bit more power at higher revs, perfect for my track car, also blacktop engines are cheaper over here in the uk, so cost wise its not been any different to convert the blacktop with some redtop parts, as it would be to buying in a redtop. Aftermarket ecu was always part of the plan aswell. The blacktop should yeild a little extra power and revs and hopefully be worth the extra work.

At the moment the engine is in and running, but it needs the fueling sorted, also the blacktop throttlebody being drive by wire is a pain, and isnt working right, not sure if it needs to talk to the vsc/trc ecu that would normally be in an altezza, i've given up on it for justnow, and will be using an adaptronic ecu and binning the altezza ecu, will be using the redtop throttle body.

Havent done anything of late Rusty, its been in storage for a couple months now at a freinds lockup, and probably will be for a couple more, i'm currently looking for a new place, i've got my new wiring loom to be doing meantime. But damn i need this thing on the road I got to drive it onto the back of a trailer though

[BonzaiCelica]

update on your blacktop beams swap into the st182???

im looking into gearing options for the s54. Edophus you said something earlier about putting an e56 transmission on an 3sge beams redtop. What are the ratio's for the E56?

[Edophus]

update on your blacktop beams swap into the st182???

im looking into gearing options for the s54. Edophus you said something earlier about putting an e56 transmission on an 3sge beams redtop. What are the ratio's for the E56?

I would need to dig them out they are in the wiki gen 6 section linked on ccuk, the final drive is slightly shorter than the s54 but there are off the shelf final drives available for the e56 if you want to change them. as for an update havent really got one, its not in storage anymore as i'm in a new house and all of it is here now but its in bits at the moment, i just agreed to buy an st205 from a freind though

[Rusty]

Celica GT nl website & CCUK facts and figures (may require you to be registered to view)

E56
Reverse -3.583
1st 3.538
2nd 2.045
3rd 1.333
4th 1.028
5th 0.820
final gear 3.944 (the same as the S54 spec)....aswell as 4.176 which is the... USA/Japanese specs
means I mad a mistake about the 'factory S54 final drive' (I used the euro version instead of the Japanese/usa one)

But I still stand by my opinion of your current final drive. As it fits with whats happening between revs and speed.

Edophus you can get up todate with what we're talking about here http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showto...78064&st=80 definitely would like to hear your views, so we can either move discussion over to there or start a new thread

[BonzaiCelica]

Yes please do put some input that wud be great