ST165 Suspension, Wheel and Braking issues, Trying to find a cheap but decent option Options

[Detatch]

Okay, so I know this isn't exactly the best place to post this, but I've been a member here for a while and learned a LOT in the past from people on this site and really have nowhere else to ask this.

I have an 88 Celica All-Trac (as well as two 94GT's), and I'm having problems finding ample information as per options for better brakes and suspension. Right now I'm running 15x6.5 or 7 Motegi Racing rims with 195/60/15 tires which are WAY too narrow for the rims, not to mention way under the proper load rating for this car. I also have the factory ST-165 brake system and suspension. I recently replaced the front strut inserts and upper bushings for the front struts, but she's still running the factory springs. I also have to get new wheels/rims, as one of mine is badly damaged and at minimum rear calipers as mine are on their last legs and currently have to be line-bled because of broken bleeder screws.

I would like to:
1) Increase braking - My 94 GT that's actually running has SUPERB brakes (factory), and will stop on a dime without engine-breaking, and faster with. The pedal responds right away, and is FIRM. I would like to figure out an option for the brakes on this car to get similar braking ability, or at least be capable of locking up the tires and/or stop the car in under 100 feet. The brakes that are on there now are soft and feel like they're having a hard time stopping the car. Would steel braided lines and drilled/slotted rotors do the trick, or would I have to put something larger on there?

2) Stiffen suspension - The current set up feels way too soft and allows too much body roll, as well as affecting acceleration and deceleration, which I think is another part of the braking issue. I'm trying to avoid spending $1000 here, so any possibility of sticking 6gc springs or something under the towers for a more firm suspension without lowering?

3) Normal average every day sized tires with better brakes? Because the tires that are on there now occasionally rub on the fenders and are still too small for these rims, I'm wanting to go back to the factory 14x6 wheel size with 195 or 205/60/14 tires. The problem with this is it won't allow for larger brakes, unless I've missed something.


What options do I have? I've considered going drilled/slotted with braided lines for the brakes, but that's almost as expensive if not more so than the ST-185 brake set-up from what little I know... I also don't know if the larger calipers and rotors will bolt right up or if I would need the 185 hubs as well, but I do know it requires minimum 15" rims, which brings the fender rubbing into play. I also don't know if the drilled/slotted with braided lines would give me adequate results.



Any input is greatly appreciated, I'm between a rock and a hard place right now.

[bloodMoney]

I also have to get new wheels/rims, as one of mine is badly damaged and at minimum rear calipers as mine are on their last legs and currently have to be line-bled because of broken bleeder screws.

This is your problem as far as pedal feel goes. When you line bleed, you CANNOT evacuate all the air from the system, which leaves you with effective, yet spongy brakes.

I would like to:
1) Increase braking - My 94 GT that's actually running has SUPERB brakes (factory), and will stop on a dime without engine-breaking, and faster with. The pedal responds right away, and is FIRM. I would like to figure out an option for the brakes on this car to get similar braking ability, or at least be capable of locking up the tires and/or stop the car in under 100 feet. The brakes that are on there now are soft and feel like they're having a hard time stopping the car. Would steel braided lines and drilled/slotted rotors do the trick, or would I have to put something larger on there?

I just upgraded my ST165 brakes to ST185 brakes (front only). The larger diameter disk and stainless lines really helped firm things up.

2) Stiffen suspension - The current set up feels way too soft and allows too much body roll, as well as affecting acceleration and deceleration, which I think is another part of the braking issue. I'm trying to avoid spending $1000 here, so any possibility of sticking 6gc springs or something under the towers for a more firm suspension without lowering?

Unfortunately, things are kind of tough for you in this department. Because of the weight of the GT4 over the other models, using these springs, they will have the tendency to prematurely sag. I would go with a set of coilovers that you can adjust both height and dampening on.

3) Normal average every day sized tires with better brakes? Because the tires that are on there now occasionally rub on the fenders and are still too small for these rims, I'm wanting to go back to the factory 14x6 wheel size with 195 or 205/60/14 tires. The problem with this is it won't allow for larger brakes, unless I've missed something.

If you go the same route that I did, with the St185 brakes, the minimum you can run is a 15" wheel with 205/55/15 tires. (I'm currently on 17x8 with a 215/40/17 tire with no issues)

What options do I have? I've considered going drilled/slotted with braided lines for the brakes, but that's almost as expensive if not more so than the ST-185 brake set-up from what little I know... I also don't know if the larger calipers and rotors will bolt right up or if I would need the 185 hubs as well, but I do know it requires minimum 15" rims, which brings the fender rubbing into play. I also don't know if the drilled/slotted with braided lines would give me adequate results.



Any input is greatly appreciated, I'm between a rock and a hard place right now.

I usually don't advocate pointing people to other boards, but alltrac.net is your best place to find the answers to any and all ST165 question you might have.

I hope this was helpful.

[soulshadow]

You can sell me your alltrac and all your problems and worries would be gone!

[Detatch]

bloodMoney - Definitely agree about the bleeder screws. Planning on replacing the calipers, lines, rotors and pads... Now, the question remains: OE replacement (possibly with drilled and slotted rotors), or st185 brakes? I have a lead on a set of 185 front calipers, rotors and pads for $50, but I'm wanting to step back to factory 14" wheels for simplicity sake... Either way I'm going with braided lines though. Another thought here is cost of the drilled/slotted rotors... I can get the ones I have replaced on warranty (same with pads). I also have no idea what I should expect as far as chasing down 185 rear brakes and what I'd have to do for the parking brake to still work.

As far as springs, do you have any you'd recommend? The cheaper the better on this, considering it's my (fun) daily driver and will doubtfully ever see the track. Dirt/mud and gravel roads as well as windy hill-side highways around where I live though, is another story all together. Bottom line is, I'm not trying to sink a boat-load of money into this one. Planning on taking the 94GT with the WRC swap to an AWD platform once I rebuild it...

If I go the 185 brake rout (probably will, pending your next suggestion), would the 205/55/15's be the best option for 15x6.5 wheels? Also, do you have any recommendations as per cheap-er-ish tires and a cheap source? Ideally I'd love to go with Yokohama AVID TRZ tires, but money is an issue at the moment, and it's not "The Monster" as Andrew (the friend who was with me) started calling it after that Celica meet.

And honestly, I'd rather just get information on this thing from people on here (such as yourself) who not only have these cars but who I know are experienced and knowledgeable with them (again, such as yourself). That, and I'm more familiar with this site than altrac.net lol... Also, any idea when there might be a meet in MO?



soulshadow - Lol, nice try friend... But this car has become a part of me now, and it's staying in the family.

[bloodMoney]

The 185 fronts will be a better option. No question.

The rears (for me) are going to stay 165 until we upgrade to the 205 rears. The parking brake should not be an issue going from one to the other.... I really haven't put too much effort into it. There have been more pressing matters with the car.

The 205/55/15 tires will be meaty on those rims. Just so you can get a reference, take a look at some OEM wheel setups on this site and then take 6mm off both sides of the rim. That's what your setup will look like. I think you'll be fine.

As for meets, I know that there are two 185 owners on the IL side of the bridge and they may be down to meet if you can get ahold of them. I would at least lurk on AT.net for that kind of info.....

Finally, before this thread gets locked, I'll just leave these here....





Those were taken at a BBQ this past weekend.

[bloodMoney]

I forgot about the springs.... For that, I think you should probably stick with OEM springs. ESPECIALLY if you are going to be doing some dirt road running in it.

In fact, you may want to think about some custom skid plates to protect things underneath the car....