Help with 5sfe timing Options

[skbradshaw]

98 Celica 5sfe manual 204,000 miles
I had an oil pump seal leak so I changed the timing belt, idler and tensioner pulleys, and water pump while I was in there. This is the second time I have changed the timing belt about 100,000 miles apart.

I had a problem with the tensioner and slipped the timing belt during reassembly. My motor does NOT have any kind of mark on the oil pump body to align with the crank gear mark, so I tried to use the mark on the harmonic balance and the plastic tab on the timing gear cover -- wouldn't start at all! After several attempts to get everything timed (at 3.5 hours per attempt since you can't test drive it without putting the motor mount back on, and you can't put the motor mount back on without putting the mount plate on), I went back to the old-school method of sticking a dowel rod in number 1 and rolling it up to TDC; aligned the cam with the seal-mark and put the belt on. Motor started right up and seemed OK so I finished the assembly and have been driving the car.

Problem:
The motor starts perfectly regardless of temperature;
I still get 29.5 to 30 MPG combined highway/city (more highway than city).

The motor has no "pop" or power in the upper rev band. I have more power when the motor is stone cold -- it almost seems "normal" when cold.
The motor goes really, really flat at or about 4000 RPM; It will still pull the higher RPM's but it does not not like to do so and has no power up there.
Compression is even at about 145-148 across all cylinders; squirting oil in the cylinders does not raise the compression. This seems low to me but is also an indication that I have the timing belt off a tooth or maybe the motor is just worn out.
I checked ignition timing today following procedures with the jumper attached in the test box; it is showing about 60 degrees BTDC!!! WTF!!!

I have to assume that I have the timing belt off a tooth and the advanced timing is what is making the motor go flat with no power. I can't reconcile that with the starting and MPG, however. Unless someone has another diagnostic for me to perform, I need to know which way do I move the cam in relation to the belt, clockwise or counter-clockwise? This is a minimum 3.5 hour job and I want to know a little more than I do right now before I start.

[mkernz22]

For one, you don't need to align the oil pump with anything; it just spins and moves oil. Only the Cam Gear and Crank Pulley have to be aligned perfectly at TDC / 0 degrees.

[skbradshaw]

I never said that I aligned the oil pump, I said there is no mark on my oil pump housing to align with the crank gear mark. Anyone else?

[Smaay]

you have a tooth off. your car is behaving exactly like my Supra did when this happened.

there must be a mark on the oil pump. i know its there. but here is the trick. the key on the the crankshaft needs to be right at 12 oclock. have it pointing up and then align the cam with the marks on the cover and you will be good to go.

[skbradshaw]

That is good information. Twelve o'clock to the world, or to the engine block? The engine is in there at an angle...

[Tigawoods]

12 to the block. the mark on mine points at 12

[Smaay]

this is a 7A but the 5S will be the same. the Key is at 12 oclock which is TDC

[Tigawoods]

I was told the notch on the crank needed to be aligned with that little dimple protruding out.
the dimple on the 5S is left of center

[skbradshaw]

Thanks. I am booked for tomorrow, so this looks like next Saturday's project!

[Bitter]

You can run the engine without the mount if you support the oil pan with a wooden block on a jack. Just be sure to have the crank pulley installed so the timing sprocket is held on.

[skbradshaw]

Timing belt was one tooth off -- fixed that. Original problem was caused by a bad harmonic balancer and me not being able to find the very subtle mark for TDC.
Engine runs great up to 3700 rpm, then it just doesn't want to rev any more -- it acts like it is out of air or fuel. Ran diagnostics on MAP, MAF, TPS, crank position sensor, all vacuum lines. Replaced cap and rotor (they weren't bad but why not at this point).

I have not checked the fuel pressure or the pressure regulator (I don't have the proper equipment). Does anyone have DIRECT experience with symptoms of a bad fuel pressure regulator?

[Smaay]

its still acting that way? if so then the timing is still off.

[Special_Edy]

Remove the number1 or number 4 sparkplug. Place a small stick about 1-2 feet in length down the spark plug tube until its resting on top of the piston. Now turn the crankshaft until the stick reaches the highest point in elevation. This is the point where the piston reaches the very top of its stroke, which is TDC, Top Dead Center(its always assumed for cylinder 1).

The timing mark for the camshaft is as follows- there is a small hole on the camshaft timing gear sprocket. There is also a small notch on the camshaft end bearing behind the cam sprocket, it is tilted 15° back from vertical(to the world) just as the engine is. Therefore the mark is perfectly verticle In Relation To The Engine. A $1 mirror on an extendable stick like they sell at the parts store counter is perfect for lining these marks up.


Also, you can place the lower timing gear cover on and set the crank pulley in the crankshaft just to line up TDC then remove them

[skbradshaw]

I've already done all of those things: the stick method is how I did it last summer, the setting it with the harmonic balancer won't work if the balancer is bad, and I just did the crankshaft mark process two weeks ago. I rotated the motor multiple times to make sure the crank mark and camshaft mark were aligned properly. I did not want to have to take it apart again!

Yes, it is still acting up at the higher revs. If I hadn't been so meticulous with the timing belt, I would also assume that it was still a tooth off. Unless there is something wrong with either the mark on the oil pump housing/crank gear or the mark on the cam seal, this motor is timed properly. The timing is spot-on at 10 degrees BTDC with the jumper installed, and drops back exactly like it is supposed to do when the jumper is removed. The advance goes exactly where it is supposed to go when the motor is revved.

I am thinking it HAS to be a fuel delivery problem at this point. So, anyone have direct experience with a bad fuel pressure regulator?

[Spider77]

Never had an issue with a FPR...I did have a similar issue a while back, but it was due to a faulty ECU...injectors were not firing..or spurting (however you prefer)...Thats where I would start....injectors and backwards.

This post has been edited by Spider77: Jan 7, 2013 - 5:48 PM

[skbradshaw]

I ran into a Toyota master technician today. I only had a few moments to describe the issue -- he immediately said, "catalytic converter". I hadn't thought about that, but with the timing belt off by at least one tooth since mid-summer, I might have fried the cat.