Camry headers? Options

[mi645]

I recently found out that some camrys came with a 4-1 header oem that deletes our first cat? Is this a bolt on to our a car? 99 Celica California spec I'm trying to get rid of the pre cat would it would bolt on 100%?

[RabidTRD]

It will be "bolt on" on the head side. OBX made a full exhaust for the 5sfe Camry, and I had it. You may have to mak some kind of adaptation for the down pipe though. All around, it's a better header than the one for our celica's.

[mi645]

How do I adapt them to our down pipe? Like what would I have to do? I know I'm gonna need to do some wiring with the 02 sensor since my Celica has 2 02 up top in the bay and the 4-1 header does not I'm looking for camrys in the junk yard I want the oem 1 I don't wanna buy obx or aftermarket I'm also wondering which camrys do I look for? Do they come even on California camry cars?

[Syaoran]

How do I adapt them to our down pipe? Like what would I have to do? I know I'm gonna need to do some wiring with the 02 sensor since my Celica has 2 02 up top in the bay and the 4-1 header does not I'm looking for camrys in the junk yard I want the oem 1 I don't wanna buy obx or aftermarket I'm also wondering which camrys do I look for? Do they come even on California camry cars?

I bought a 97-2001 5SFE and it came with the header. It looks like it's a little too short to match the downpipe on the Celica. You'd probably have to extend the downpipe a couple of inches at a muffler shop. It'd be best to increase exhaust size to 2.25" as well.

For the Oxygen sensors you could just extend the wires so you can mount them after the header. Basically you just need to mount one before a Catalytic converter and one after.


You're supposed to look for this Camry:

[trdproven]

muffler shop unless you know how to weld. not sure a camry header is worth it unless you got it free cus of the custom work and not that much better. at least an ebay header is a bit better and nicer looking and no custom welding to match up to the downpipe. you'd save more time and money with an ebay header starting at 75 bucks and is complete with gaskets and direct bolt on. however it will delete your cat cus its on the manifold.

This post has been edited by trdproven: Jan 23, 2013 - 7:32 PM

[Syaoran]

The thing about the eBay header is that it's too big (runners are too big) so you get nearly no performance gain over stock. The camry header is a lot better matched for the 5SFE

[trdproven]

Theres almost nothing significant you can bolt on to a 5sfe anyway, they are more just for personal reasons.

Realistically, theres really not much improvement for both headers, so in his case, its probably just to have a header on. I think smaller runners would allow to keep the low end stock torque but then for the most part thats really what is now, by going bigger lets your car breathe better more with a decent exhaust and its between more low end vs top end power band. Then again at the end with this kind of motor, both types would be really psychological improvements for the most part, but at least the ebay header will give sound and looks and bolt on if thats what you are looking for. again the camry header is more than just picking it, its not bolt on, thats the kicker. by fitting it to the downpipe you have to spend more and go to a shop if need be, and not have the much. youd still have a stock looking header, no sound, a little more work. Again just putting on any kind of header on a 5sfe is not much but then again bolt on parts only make a better difference on a better or high end motor/build, not 5sfe anyway. 5sfe guys just buy it to put it on to have one and maybe have some sound or complete their exhaust work to the tip.

This post has been edited by trdproven: Jan 23, 2013 - 9:40 PM

[Smaay]

The thing about the eBay header is that it's too big (runners are too big) so you get nearly no performance gain over stock. The camry header is a lot better matched for the 5SFE

thats crap, My butt dyno felt a 3-5 HP gain when i installed the surewin header.

to the OP get one of these. http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=68576

[trdproven]

i thought my top end was a lot better with my header and exhaust with the ebay header. with a camry header and what you have to do for it and what you get back in return, you might as well not use it really..

This post has been edited by trdproven: Jan 24, 2013 - 7:13 AM

[Syaoran]

The thing about the eBay header is that it's too big (runners are too big) so you get nearly no performance gain over stock. The camry header is a lot better matched for the 5SFE

thats crap, My butt dyno felt a 3-5 HP gain when i installed the surewin header.

to the OP get one of these. http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=68576

Was that HP? or BHP? As in butt-horsepower...

[trdproven]

for me i think it was psychological hp - LOL. i think it was better breathing is obvious. i dont think its even worth dyno-ing a 5s after just these headers. it would however be a good to know thing for many just for reference on its results though.

[Special_Edy]

When you put a header onto a stock 5sfe or 7afe all you are doing is unrestricting the most unrestricted part of the engine. The intake ports and the way they flow into the combustion chamber is the bottleneck. Its a sharp bend from the intake down into the cylinder, fluid dynamics tells us that bends are really restrictive and that the less angles a pipe(or intake port) has the better it will flow.

Edit* Let me put it this way, removing the precat and putting headers on sounds like a great idea. You can eliminate all that nasty backpressure. But in reality your engine doesnt have a lot of backpressure, or any trouble breathing out the exhaust, because its being suffocated by the cylinder head so there really isnt enough air to expell.

This post has been edited by Special_Edy: Jan 25, 2013 - 10:34 AM

[Smaay]

^^^ yep

[ILoveMySilly97]

When you put a header onto a stock 5sfe or 7afe all you are doing is unrestricting the most unrestricted part of the engine. The intake ports and the way they flow into the combustion chamber is the bottleneck. Its a sharp bend from the intake down into the cylinder, fluid dynamics tells us that bends are really restrictive and that the less angles a pipe(or intake port) has the better it will flow.

Edit* Let me put it this way, removing the precat and putting headers on sounds like a great idea. You can eliminate all that nasty backpressure. But in reality your engine doesnt have a lot of backpressure, or any trouble breathing out the exhaust, because its being suffocated by the cylinder head so there really isnt enough air to expell.

Just to back it up with some info I found on an other page:

Here is a 5S-FE head, note the shape of the combustion chanber and the angle of the valves, they are almost vertical.



Here is a 3sgte cylinder head, notice how the valves are almost sideways. Rather than go around two 90° bends, the air can almost flow straight through.


side by side-


The FE head on the right is narrower than the GE/GTE head on the left. The reason is notice how much farther apart the camshafts are spaced on the GTE. The camshafts are located almost directly over the valves on the 5SFE, hence the camshafts are close together. The camshafts are farther apart on the GE/GTE because the valves are pitched at a more sideways angle.
So the point is that with a 5sfe head, the airflow will have to make 4 sharp bends- 1) from horizontal flow through the intake port to nearly vertical downwards through the valve; 2) once it passes through the valve into the combustion chamber it must turn nearly 90° to flow towards the exhaust valve; 3) another sharp nearly 90° bend into the exhaust valve; finally another nearly 90° out the exhaust port.
The 3SGTE/3SGE has these same bends, but the angle are all significantly less. I would go so far as to conjecture that the airflow through the head has to make HALF the degrees of turns.

Yes there are many things you can do to improve the airflow of the 5sfe head, but the single most cost effective performance mod you can perform is to simply swap from a FE to a GE/GTE head.



Edit** ok so I finally found the specs buried in the forums, the 5SFE has a 22.3° valve angle, whereas the 3SGTE and 3SGE have 44.5° valve angles.

[Special_Edy]

^lol those are both from me,


I came up with an excellent analogy the other day.
Imagine you want more water to come out of the garden hose but the spigot is only halfway open. Would putting a larger diameter garden hose increase the amount of water flowing out? Not significantly, but opening the spigot would. BTW your engine(specifically the head) is the spigot and the hose is your exhaust.

To answer the OPs question, I do know that the Camry 5sfe has a balancing shaft inside the block and the Celica/MR2 5sfe lacks this balancing shaft. I read that when swapping a Camry 5sfe into a Celica the celica exhaust wont fit because of the additional bulge of this balancing shaft. This leads me to the conclusion that the downpipe/midpipe(w/e it is) is probably slightly different, though Im not sure this makes the header/manifold different.
I do know that the cylinder heads are identical, so the header will bolt to the cylinder head properly.

Also, I have a 94 Celica GT with federal emissions and it came with only 1 catalytic converter. This cat is located inside the manifold, which is the one I assume you want to delete. I would caution you to verify that it isnt necessary before you remove it. One thing to look at is the location of the O2 sensors. You should have 2 O2 sensors, the first one is before the catalytic converter and is used to control fuel trim for the ECU. The second O2 sensor is for emissions only and is located either between the two cats(if indeed you do have two) or after all of the cats. If it is after ALL of the cats than you may be able to delete one and not throw an emissions failing code. If the second O2 sensor is BETWEEN the two cats, then you will absolutely fail emissions if you remove the first cat. It is possible you are looking at a resonator not a catalytic converter, they do appear similar and only differ outwardly in location.

[trdproven]

yea but headers look cool in our cars cus thers not much to put in LOL.

[Syaoran]

Here's a pic for comparison on the Camry header and the eBay header. The camry header weighs twice as much, the bends are different and the pipes are thicker, and slightly smaller in diameter.

[trdproven]

id rather run the ebay one for a few purposes, like what you mentioned above.