5sfte Valve's?, Peformance preffered Options

[NeverBeGosu]

I heard the 3sgte valves work in the 5sfte build but I was hoping for something a little more performance wise. Anyone have experience with this? Wanting at least 350 hp.

[rjbibeau]

u might as well go 3sgte swap if you are shooting for 350.

[PolliS_5S-FE]

There is a big post by Syaoran on building the head including info about valves. I found it quite interesting.

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showto...gasket%E2%80%8F

[Syaoran]

We used to believe 3S-GTE valves would work on a Revision 1 5S-FE head (the one found in 90-92 MR2 and Celica, and very early Camry)

However, while they do fit, the shim clearance will go way out of spec (too much clearance) by simply installing the valves into the 1st rev head, as proven by MrTurrari (a respected 5S builder in the MR2 forums). I believe he found that the clearance was out by 30 thousandths (0.030") of an inch and pointed out that our shims do not come that thick, so it is impossible to get them back to spec using stock parts.

However, if you are using the 2nd Revision 5S-FE, the 2JZ-GTE valves fit and the clearance can be adjusted. Stock 2JZ valves are +1mm in our heads, so you could either go for expensive valves or a set of used valves in good condition. Either way, they'll work with the right machining.

[NeverBeGosu]

if I just get performance ones made custom, should I use standard specs for the 5s. I don't know what revision motor I have, I have two of them, a 94 and a 95 5sfe.

And to answer your question rjbib, I have a 3sgte 6gen already. I'm wanting to play with the 5sfe.

[Syaoran]

P.S. why are you looking into valves? The cost of installing new valves into the head really outweigh the need of doing so. I believe the couple hundred bucks could be better spent elsewhere, like connecting rods. The stock valve train is good for up to 7000RPM, more than enough to get to 350whp with cams, intake manifold, larger TB, and a pretty big turbo.

[NeverBeGosu]

this is not a budget build. I am wanting to replace all the fault points. And one of the weaknesses is the spring, from what I was told. So if I am going to be replacing the spring, I might as well replace the valve.

keep in mind guys, I have 350 hp as my base goal. I am probably going to drop about 10k into her. Everyone keeps saying go something else, go something else. That is the same reason why no one is running a 500 hp 5sfte yet because they keep getting asked to build something else. I have three celicas. One has a 3sgte, I don't want another 3s.

but if I can get a nice 5sfte build, built the best way to long lasting performance at 350 hp, then that's what I want. So many people post how they blow this, and blow that on there motors. I don't want that issue. I have never seen someone post the block just cracked. So I want the best I can get for the 5s and all I wanted was a descent company to get some custom valves made.

Syaoran, I have read your's, sways, and pressures, entire threads. I know what I am getting myself into, and I know I lack the ability and knowledge to do it right, but I have something better then all of that. MONEY and the willingness/patience to learn.

I might not be a car guru like you guys are, but that's why I am not buying another 10k celica, and am custom building my own from the ground up.

[Syaoran]

Well if that's the case, then you should go and read up on MrTurrari. He's the only one who actually has a built 5S-FE with a lot of custom work on it.

Major fault points: Cams. The springs aren't as much as an issue as the cams. In fact, 5S-FE springs are better than a lot of other performance engines'.

If you wanna build a mean 5S-FE, you need a good set of cams, a custom intake manifold, a much larger TB than stock (~70mm) and all the related headwork.

Valves: 2JZ-GTE valves work. Get 2JZ-GTE Toyota or aftermarket valves.

Springs and retainers: 2JZ-GTE springs require the lower part of the spring to be opened up a bit. They otherwise work perfectly. A competent machine shop can do the work.

Pistons: You're gonna have to get them custom made. I recommend going with CP or JE pistons for these. 87.75mm for a true 2.2L displacement.

Rods: Pauter Rods are the only off-the-shelf rods for the 5S. I bought a set of unbranded Eagle rods from China (Eagle H-beam rods are not made in the USA apparently) but I haven't tested them far enough to recommend them. They did require work on the piston pin, big bore and side clearances to fit properly. Whatever you do, try to get them with whatever extra lubrication machining the manufacturer can provide (like piston pin oiling and the holes on the sides for cooling the piston with oil) which will provide extra longevity.

Cams: Anything with over 8mm lift and over 220* @ 0.050" duration will do a LOT better than stock.

Headwork: You'll need everything. New seats for the valves, new valve job, porting the intake side, porting and polishing the exhaust, etc. I recommend doing a shimless bucket conversion. It'll help lighten the valve train and help the engine rev easier as well as removing the risk present from using shim-over buckets (stock)

Block: Line hone the main caps, bore and hone the cylinders, deck the block smooth.

Electronics: Megasquirt-3/extra to control it all, could look into Haltech, ViPec, etc.

Don't use the distributor. Convert to crank sensor. Get a 98+ head with the provision for the cam position sensor and the cam sprocket with the tooth for it. Full sequential injection is best. COP ignition is optional but recommended.

Get a good turbo, and unless you have easy access to e85, water/meth injection is a must.

You're looking at at least well over $5000 right there already, without labor costs.

[NeverBeGosu]

Now that's a post im looking for

I already priced/ found distributers for everything your saying.

Like I said I am still researching. My biggest issue is understanding all the values. Such as the 9.5:1 or something like that, and the cambs 8mm lift and over 220* @ 0.050".

I am trying to learn the values and how they correspond to effect the other items. I like the bucket idea, and am going to do that.

Now I just need to figure out which ones of each to buy. I started a project thread, which I think you know of. And am going to be putting the site links of what I am ordering, and that way people like yourself who are much more intelligent can raise any flags before purchasing.

My engine mount and hoist should get here in the next few days then I will be working on the interirior/engine bay of the vehicle for a while. giving me plenty of time to sort out all the bugs of what exactly to build.

Like I said, I was looking at around 10k for just parts, and was gonna try to learn the labor by myself. I know it sounds dumb, but I want to learn this and don't care how much it cost me.

6gc is my dream car, and always will be since I was a young kid. I want one of each year, and want different motors in each.

my 95 is the 3sgte
my 94 is this 5sfe project.
my 96 will be the convertible
97 maybe gt4 awd
98 beams
99 and I have no idea, its so far away

lol

[Syaoran]

9.5:1 is the static compression ratio of the pistons. Valves aren't measure in ratios, they're measured in diameters (inches or mm) and are the doors to the combustion chamber. The bigger the doors, the more air that can come in/go out, restricted by the intake tract and camshafts.

The other numbers are what is called "lift and duration" of the camshafts. Lift is measured in millimeters or fractions of an inch(it's easier to see a difference in millimeters so I rather go by that) and duration is measured in degrees (like the rest of the engine timing)

It basically dictates how "wide" the door will open and for how long to allow the entry of air.

There's a ton of different options to choose from but the most common to use are the webcams 294, 763 and 101 grinds. If you're going with custom everything, I would go with the most aggressive 101 profile.

[NeverBeGosu]

These are the rods I am looking at but am trying to figure out the problem I cant solve
On Both of these rods everything is the same except the B E BORE

I have no idea what that means, and I assumed it was bottom end Bore but after reading I don't think that's right. Anyways, I have heard that the 3sgte Rods are good so was looking at those as a replacement, but again, the one measurement is off and don't want to get something that wont work.
Any ideas on the difference guys?


MR2 Turbo, Celica Turbo 2.0L 3SGTE

.866”

2.008”

5.435”

1.055”

610g

TOY-220-510-1380F


MR2, Celica 2.2L 5SFE

.866”

2.166”

5.435”

1.055”

680g

TOY-220-550-1380F

This post has been edited by NeverBeGosu: Jul 24, 2013 - 5:07 PM

[Syaoran]

The difference is the big end bore. You'll need to grind the 5SFE crankshaft down to fit the 3SGTE rods, or get 5SFE rods such as Pauter rods.

[NeverBeGosu]

The difference is the big end bore. You'll need to grind the 5SFE crankshaft down to fit the 3SGTE rods, or get 5SFE rods such as Pauter rods.

kk thanks
ill go with the pauter rods

[Smaay]

holy crap man, why on earth would you drop 10K into a 5S-FE? that makes no sense at all. there are so many other options out there

[Syaoran]

holy crap man, why on earth would you drop 10K into a 5S-FE? that makes no sense at all. there are so many other options out there

Which is exactly why he wants to do it lol, because it makes no sense

[NeverBeGosu]

cuase I want to be different and its fun, and it will be one of a kind if not just very few.

Anyways, looking at some numbers here should I lower my compression to 8.5:1 if im planning on boosting?

[Syaoran]

cuase I want to be different and its fun, and it will be one of a kind if not just very few.

Anyways, looking at some numbers here should I lower my compression to 8.5:1 if im planning on boosting?

Choosing the right Static Compression Ratio is dependent on your goals. Is this gonna be driven daily? Track-only? A mix of both? What octane/alternative fuel will you be using?

I'm going to run stock 9.5:1 compression ratio. New turbocharged engines come with 9.5:1 static compression. I find it's the best compromise in "low" CR and off-boost drivability. The lower your static CR, the more of a slouch the car will be off-boost, but the more boost you can run "safely" (I put it in quotation marks because this is where fuel comes into play)

3SGTE engines come with 9.0, 8.8 and 8.5:1 compression ratios, and some engines have come with as low as 7.5:1 CR in the past (Hyundai Scoupe)

If you're gonna be running on E85, you can run 9.5:1 CR and tons of boost very safely, vs running 91 octane and lots of boost. It all depends on how you want the car to behave. Static CR also directly impacts turbo spool time, which is something else to take into consideration. (lowering CR to use a huge turbo kinda hits hard on spool time, so a dual ball bearing garrett or precision turbo unit is recommended, for example)

[NeverBeGosu]

cuase I want to be different and its fun, and it will be one of a kind if not just very few.

Anyways, looking at some numbers here should I lower my compression to 8.5:1 if im planning on boosting?

Choosing the right Static Compression Ratio is dependent on your goals. Is this gonna be driven daily? Track-only? A mix of both? What octane/alternative fuel will you be using?

I'm going to run stock 9.5:1 compression ratio. New turbocharged engines come with 9.5:1 static compression. I find it's the best compromise in "low" CR and off-boost drivability. The lower your static CR, the more of a slouch the car will be off-boost, but the more boost you can run "safely" (I put it in quotation marks because this is where fuel comes into play)

3SGTE engines come with 9.0, 8.8 and 8.5:1 compression ratios, and some engines have come with as low as 7.5:1 CR in the past (Hyundai Scoupe)

If you're gonna be running on E85, you can run 9.5:1 CR and tons of boost very safely, vs running 91 octane and lots of boost. It all depends on how you want the car to behave. Static CR also directly impacts turbo spool time, which is something else to take into consideration. (lowering CR to use a huge turbo kinda hits hard on spool time, so a dual ball bearing garrett or precision turbo unit is recommended, for example)

Gonna be running on 91 oct
Thinking of running the 8.5 compression. I really don't care how fast it is in the low gears/rpms but really want to be able to have some upper end. So I think the 8.5 will allow more boost for the engine. So I will probably have to go with a dual ball bearing garrett. Any recomdations on the turbo? again looking for 350 easy and room for more if wanted. The block will handle it with all the forged internals. (I hope

The car is going to be a show, and also a trip car for when I drive distances over a few hours. I like know it sounds dumb, but that's what I want. I don't do the track, nor do I street race, but would like to be able to pull away from the gt's out there. I think 350 hp is plenty enough for the street, if even a little to much, but like I said, I am looking for more control high end then I am early. So will the compression being lower, and my valves selected/along with the 5sfe pauter rods and the springs, be able to get me better high end? Even move the redline to the right a little?

Like I said guys, I am very humble and thank you all for the support and knowledge. Its a dream, but I only have the time and the money, and you all have the knowledge.

[Smaay]

you are going to spend a ton of money and make fair power, why not spend half as much money and make the same power with an engine swap?

but hey its your wallet, i hope you actually finish this project

[Syaoran]

Gonna be running on 91 oct
Thinking of running the 8.5 compression. I really don't care how fast it is in the low gears/rpms but really want to be able to have some upper end. So I think the 8.5 will allow more boost for the engine. So I will probably have to go with a dual ball bearing garrett. Any recomdations on the turbo? again looking for 350 easy and room for more if wanted. The block will handle it with all the forged internals. (I hope

The car is going to be a show, and also a trip car for when I drive distances over a few hours. I like know it sounds dumb, but that's what I want. I don't do the track, nor do I street race, but would like to be able to pull away from the gt's out there. I think 350 hp is plenty enough for the street, if even a little to much, but like I said, I am looking for more control high end then I am early. So will the compression being lower, and my valves selected/along with the 5sfe pauter rods and the springs, be able to get me better high end? Even move the redline to the right a little?

Like I said guys, I am very humble and thank you all for the support and knowledge. Its a dream, but I only have the time and the money, and you all have the knowledge.

If you're gonna be on 91, I recommend a 9.0:1 or 8.5:1 static CR. It'll help control pre-ignition a little better.

The thing about lower compression is makes you lose power down low, which means more gas wasted than before and less willingness to go up a hill off-boost. It's not about track or street race and, as a matter of fact, I would actually try to keep as high a compression ratio as possible if it's gonna be just a cruising car. I don't really get why you would want a low compression, 350whp car if you're never gonna race it.

As for headwork, you'll need cams more than valves like I mentioned before. Cams are the most important mod on the 5S-FE head to unleash true potential. Webcams 294 cams allow you to retain stock shim-over buckets, stock springs, retainers and valves and they let you have a higher redline while at it.