Discussion: 3SGTE on OBD2 Options

[bnr32celica]

Background:

Spun a bearing in cylinder 4 on my 5S. Rest of block is savable, crank is not. The head isn't in great nick either. I have a known bad lifter (possibly more than one), and the head is more than likely warped and not able to be further machined (the first time I did the HG they took off 19 thou, the second time I just threw a new one on).

Car:

1996 Celica GT with 282k miles. It MUST stay OBD2 thanks to eCheck (and the fact that I'm a certified eCheck tech, how bad would that look lol)0. Here's my two options...

Option 1: 5SGE/Gen2-3 3SGE. This would be damn near plug and play. I'm not abashed to overboring my block to accept some nicer pistons with slightly higher compression to take advantage of a GE head. Also not abashed to a 3SGE motor either. Would require some sensor porting, but nothing that couldn't be done in a day. I consider this the same option.

Option 2: Gen2 3SGTE. I would approach this similarly to a 3SGE swap. The car SHOULD run on OBD2 if I do several things in addition to the basics:
--Swap over the 5S crank gear/crank sensor (Gen2 gets both cam and crank sensor from the disty)
--Use the 5S distributor (see above)
--Swap over ANY sensor that was on the 5S (and I mean every single one)
--Do some creative vacuum lines to trick the factory 5S MAP sensor
--Retard base timing (the 5S is known to add boatloads of timing under WOT)

I'm not abashed to trailblazing, but there has to be somebody who has done it (or at least has gotten close). I hate to think that a lowly Civic owner can just swap anything he desires and have full functionality, and we can't. I have a second car (a 2006 Corolla XRS 6MT), so this car can stay down for a little while. I must say though, the Corolla drives like **** compared to my 6GC, so I want my 6GC back.

I want an intelligent discussion, simply saying "IMPOSSIBRU!" or "You can't!" won't be accepted as valid. I want this to be informative, eye-opening, and hopefully helpful to others in my boat.

[Syaoran]

Or you could get a gen4 3sgte which I believe is OBD2. I could be wrong.

[bnr32celica]

No 3SGTE was ever OBD2. This is my issue. The closest I have seen to a Gen4 ANYTHING OBD2 was a 6GC with a BEAMS running 1ZZ management. Wires everywhere, but you could scan the hell out of that car. I almost had to fail it for a swap, but luckily, it was a 99 engine in a 1996. I don't ask questions, if it scans, it's fine.

I believe that car was done a LONG time ago, it looked like hell, and I knew the last owner. Car met its demise when she ran off the road doing 90+. Should have bought the car from her, but she junked it. Would have been a good start on a BEAMS/Gen4 swap...

[lagos]

Option 2: Gen2 3SGTE. I would approach this similarly to a 3SGE swap. The car SHOULD run on OBD2 if I do several things in addition to the basics:
--Swap over the 5S crank gear/crank sensor (Gen2 gets both cam and crank sensor from the disty)
--Use the 5S distributor (see above)
--Swap over ANY sensor that was on the 5S (and I mean every single one)
--Do some creative vacuum lines to trick the factory 5S MAP sensor
--Retard base timing (the 5S is known to add boatloads of timing under WOT)

DONT DO THIS. YOU WILL BLOW THE MOTOR.

No 3SGTE was ever OBD2. This is my issue. The closest I have seen to a Gen4 ANYTHING OBD2 was a 6GC with a BEAMS running 1ZZ management. Wires everywhere, but you could scan the hell out of that car. I almost had to fail it for a swap, but luckily, it was a 99 engine in a 1996. I don't ask questions, if it scans, it's fine.

I believe that car was done a LONG time ago, it looked like hell, and I knew the last owner. Car met its demise when she ran off the road doing 90+. Should have bought the car from her, but she junked it. Would have been a good start on a BEAMS/Gen4 swap...

I think the gen 4 3sgte might be. I remember seeing some reports on mr2oc of people wiring up OBD2 connectors to them to use the various OBD2 diagnostic apps.

[bnr32celica]

Option 2: Gen2 3SGTE. I would approach this similarly to a 3SGE swap. The car SHOULD run on OBD2 if I do several things in addition to the basics:
--Swap over the 5S crank gear/crank sensor (Gen2 gets both cam and crank sensor from the disty)
--Use the 5S distributor (see above)
--Swap over ANY sensor that was on the 5S (and I mean every single one)
--Do some creative vacuum lines to trick the factory 5S MAP sensor
--Retard base timing (the 5S is known to add boatloads of timing under WOT)

DONT DO THIS. YOU WILL BLOW THE MOTOR.

Where is the err of my way? All I want the car do is RUN. I can approach tuning once it's in the car.

No 3SGTE was ever OBD2. This is my issue. The closest I have seen to a Gen4 ANYTHING OBD2 was a 6GC with a BEAMS running 1ZZ management. Wires everywhere, but you could scan the hell out of that car. I almost had to fail it for a swap, but luckily, it was a 99 engine in a 1996. I don't ask questions, if it scans, it's fine.

I believe that car was done a LONG time ago, it looked like hell, and I knew the last owner. Car met its demise when she ran off the road doing 90+. Should have bought the car from her, but she junked it. Would have been a good start on a BEAMS/Gen4 swap...

I think the gen 4 3sgte might be. I remember seeing some reports on mr2oc of people wiring up OBD2 connectors to them to use the various OBD2 diagnostic apps.

Really? Definitely feasible at that point. A Gen4 is easier to come by for me.

[lagos]

Option 2: Gen2 3SGTE. I would approach this similarly to a 3SGE swap. The car SHOULD run on OBD2 if I do several things in addition to the basics:
--Swap over the 5S crank gear/crank sensor (Gen2 gets both cam and crank sensor from the disty)
--Use the 5S distributor (see above)
--Swap over ANY sensor that was on the 5S (and I mean every single one)
--Do some creative vacuum lines to trick the factory 5S MAP sensor
--Retard base timing (the 5S is known to add boatloads of timing under WOT)

DONT DO THIS. YOU WILL BLOW THE MOTOR.

Where is the err of my way? All I want the car do is RUN. I can approach tuning once it's in the car.

No 3SGTE was ever OBD2. This is my issue. The closest I have seen to a Gen4 ANYTHING OBD2 was a 6GC with a BEAMS running 1ZZ management. Wires everywhere, but you could scan the hell out of that car. I almost had to fail it for a swap, but luckily, it was a 99 engine in a 1996. I don't ask questions, if it scans, it's fine.

I believe that car was done a LONG time ago, it looked like hell, and I knew the last owner. Car met its demise when she ran off the road doing 90+. Should have bought the car from her, but she junked it. Would have been a good start on a BEAMS/Gen4 swap...

I think the gen 4 3sgte might be. I remember seeing some reports on mr2oc of people wiring up OBD2 connectors to them to use the various OBD2 diagnostic apps.

Really? Definitely feasible at that point. A Gen4 is easier to come by for me.

Its a really bad idea to try to run a turbo motor on an NA ecu. The compression ratio of each engine is extremely different and so is the volumetric efficiency. The car will run like utter crap and you run a huge risk of blowing it up just by driving it one block before your emissions test.

If youre handy with electronics, there is something you can try. I've had this idea for a while since my car is also obd2, but I never got around to seeing if It could actually work.
The megasquirt EMS has a really neat product called JimStim that is used for testing megasquirt units once they are assembled. Whats really cool about it is that its designed to simulate the electric signals sent out by various engine sensors to simulate to megasquirt that a real car is running. I don't see why you couldn't wire this up to a factory 5sfe ecu and achieve the same thing.

You would probably have to do some hacking to get this to perfectly work, but if have access to odb2 diagnostic stuff, you just might be able to figure out how to make it work.

Here is what I'm taking about
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/jimstim...565192794b744d2

Here is a video of it in action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4yudqswCg8

[Box]

4th gens from 2001 onward should be able to be converted to OBDII, as they'll be set up for EOBD/JOBD which is essentially OBDII.

This post has been edited by Box: Aug 2, 2013 - 11:32 PM

[Box]

Of course another option is to find a 94-95 GT in the same condition as yours to swap, then it doesn't matter. Personally that's what I'd do.