st 204 turbo Options

[thorshammer]

Hi I have a st204 Celica with 5fse engine and am wanting o turbo it. I have read 1bwilson's and Shid's posts on turboing a 5sfe and list of components needed and this seems to be the best way to go. In my neck of the woods CT26 turbos are hard to come by, T3/T4 turbo is easier to sourc.e My question is what T3/T4 do I need and other than a CT26-T3/T4 adaptor is there anything else I need. I live in Australia so Mustangs and other American cars are not common here but plenty of Japanese sources. Thanks

[Smaay]

read my thread and Pressure2 threads. I have a few turbos left over from when i ordered 5 turbos.

[Syaoran]

If you're gonna use t3/t4 don't get the adapters unless you can't get a manifold fabbed up.

The most important part of turboing the car isn't the turbo, it's how you're going to tune it. The turbo you choose only matters when considering response, powerband and final power output.

If you have a Garrett GT2871R and have a ****ty SAFC as a tuning solution then you can expect your engine to go boom.


First see if you have the budget to install a good tuning solution and then choose what turbo you're going to use.

[JoshuaM]

Which state are you in, and are you off your P plates yet? Two very important things to consider if you want to turbo in Australia - because our laws are much stricter here when it comes to certifying modifications.

[thorshammer]

Thanks for the replies. Firstly I live in NSW and was off P-plates 30+ years ago. Im a mechanic but didnt start my apprenticeship till I was 32 so been qualified bout 14yrs. Picked up the celica dirt cheap at council auctions for abandoned vehicles, was going to fix and sell it but decided to build myself the toy I never had as a teenager instead. Im not looking to get it standing on its head just beef it up a bit, although ct26 might be a frag to small. Am going to rebuild engine, not going to use forged pistons or rods but if there are more suitable rod bolts, big end and main bearings, valve springs etc il put them in. As for tuning solution hopefully something in the $500 range will do, if anybody has any ideas id appreciate it. Been trying to source the rx7 blue top 440cc injectors cause they are ment to drop straight in but seem rare as hens teeth. How much for one of those T3s you have Smaay-changing oil filter looks like lots of fun lol. Thanks again, any advice from people who have been there done that is always appreciated.

[Chovies]

Do us a favor and do the 3stge engine swap and see how easy it is to do in NSW haha, Better for you and the rest of us will finally have a yes/no.

[Syaoran]

1. Im not looking to get it standing on its head just beef it up a bit, although ct26 might be a frag to small.


2. Am going to rebuild engine, not going to use forged pistons or rods but if there are more suitable rod bolts, big end and main bearings, valve springs etc il put them in.

3. As for tuning solution hopefully something in the $500 range will do, if anybody has any ideas id appreciate it.

4.Been trying to source the rx7 blue top 440cc injectors cause they are ment to drop straight in but seem rare as hens teeth.

1. CT26 is good enough for around 200-220whp, all else remaining stock with 93 octane fuel and a good tune. Like I said, the good tune is what matters, and I'd personally spend more on a good computer than a "good" turbo.

2. There are no suitable rod bolts. Either you grind the 5S-FE crank down to accept 3S-GTE rods (forged or stock), or you get forged rods for the 5S-FE.

3. For $500 you can get a piggyback. Piggybacks are not that good really. Only "useful" one is the GReddy E-Manage Ultimate. I'd go for a Megasquirt-II or similar standalone instead. A good tune means both power and durability, as well as fuel economy.

4. You are looking for the RX-7 red top injectors which are high impedance. The blue tops I had never heard of being used in the 5S, and the purple top are I think 550cc and low impedance.

Regardless of what you do, you should get a newer camry oil pump with the crank sensor provision, the crank sensor for it and the timing gear with the trigger wheel in it. It'll make your tuner's life a lot easier than having to deal with the stock distributor which is ****.

[thorshammer]

Tanks for the reply Syaoran. Ordered a oil pump 10 days ago from Taiwan and put it in car today. Then got home and looked at your post-no biggie got to take the whole thing out when I rebuild anyway. I looked at photos of the pump I got and pumps for camry with sensor and cant see any difference? How would I go about hooking it up? I think these are the injectors your talking about RX-7 NA 460cc - Red Top #195500-2010. Again not easy to find but I have time on my side. Im thinking of GREDDY E-MANAGE EMANAGE ULTIMATE CONTROL - 15500501. Any lines on a twin intake CT26 would be appreciated.

[presure2]

trust me, instead of getting the emanage ultimate, get the megasquirt.

the emanage is just a more advanced piggyback, i had it for a few years on my 5sfte that made 300+whp. (read my thread like smaay posted, its worth the read to go thru both our posts, as well as syaoran's build thread he is working on.)
the megasquirt will give you full control of fuel and more importantly on the 5sfte, timing.
the stock ECU is setup for n/a, and has alot of timing, especially in the low load areas, too much for a boosted application, and that will cause issues, no matter the piggyback.

unless your ultimate goal is only 220-250whp, i would skip the ct-26 and at least go 20b. the '26 creates tons of backpressure at anything over stockish boost, and with that comes heat.
that extra heat is bad, especially on a 5s, even more so with a piggyback.

if your gonna build a t3/4 based setup, check out supershannons thread that i made, its got alot of details and pics that will show you what needs to be done.

the crank sensor bolts to the oil pump housing, and the crank pully for the timing belt has the trigger wheel built into it.
you cant use that with the stock ECU (in a 94-95, all the 96+ 5s had em)
its not absolutly needed, especially for a budget build, but it definetly allows more accurate timing information than the stock distributor.
rods i wouldnt worry about unless your looking to make 400+whp, or looking to raise your redline.

really have a serious read thru my build thread, there are alot of details in there that your totally missing, that would cover alot of the questions you seem to have.

ill have to do a podcast on the 5sfte in the next couple weeks.
if you havent yet, i suggest checking out the podcast thread in the general disscussion forum.

[lagos]

the stock ECU is setup for n/a, and has alot of timing, especially in the low load areas, too much for a boosted application, and that will cause issues, no matter the piggyback.

I can't stress enough how important this fact posted by presure2 is!

After tuning my megasquirt for the past few months and learning a lot about ignition timing maps, I am amazed that the 5sfTe setups running any type of piggy back manage to hold up as long as they do. In fact Id guess that the only reason they do is that the factory knock sensor is very good and stepping in and constantly pulling timing (and robbing you of power) in an attempt to save the motor.

To give you an example of what I mean, a none turbo motor runs around 30 degrees of ignition timing at high load (100kpa is high load for an NA motor).

*Not a real toyota map, just an example of the idea.

So these will pretty much be your timing values with something like an Emanage. With an SAFC, this will be even worse as the safc will fool the ecu into thinking its at a lower load in some cases giving you even more timing (the posted map is not a great example of this, but the factory ecu could run as much as 40 degrees in this range.

On a factory turbo ecu these timing values need to be tuned to decrease as boost increases (the area from 100kpa to 200+) to account for the extra heat/power produced by the turbo, and in the case of a 5sfTe, would probably need to be dropped down to the 10-14 degree range.


Because of this I believe the factory ecu is the next weak link in the 5sfTe setup.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jul 4, 2013 - 12:28 PM

[presure2]

agreed 100% art.
in all these 5sfte setups, the ecu is the weak link.
and your also 100% right about the knock system as well!

[thorshammer]

Read through your entire post tonight-what a ride. Pretty much going to stick to the formula that has been tried and tested. Will get the Megasquirt and other parts you suggest. Sourcing the 460 injectors is proving troublesome, are there any others of a similar output that can be used? The only reason Im considering the T3/T4 is because they are easy to get. Besides the CT26 and CT20b are there any other turbos you recommend? I noticed the difference in strength of the 98 block and am considering just getting a clagged out engine out of a 98 model from the local wreckers and rebuilding that, then I have the stronger block and crank angle sensor all in one. I do alot of business with them and can probably get it for $400 or so. Also I noticed or didnt notice a catalytic convertor on your car, did you remove it? Thats something I have to have to fit in with emission laws in Australia. Really appreciate the work you put into your build and sharing the information, ta.

[presure2]

if your gonna go t3/4 based, read thru supershannons 5sfte thread, heres a link
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=52431&hl=

for a t3/4 based setup, i'd look for a 46trim compressor, with the .63 hotside.

the 98+ block is nice, but not needed unless your looking to make big power. you can just rebuild your own motor, and have your machine shop prep the block and head for a metal headgasket, and just get the 98+ hg.
you can get a high flow cat, i didnt need to on my car, so i took them all out when i redid the exahust for the turbo setup.

you should size your injectors based on your power goals, but if your gonna go mega squirt i wouldnt get smaller than the 460s. with the stock ecu in place it gets difficult to get the car to run properly with larger injectors, but with the MS that wont really matter, so you can get pretty much any injectors that will fit in the rail and head.

[delusionz]

Wow, is megasquirt only 12x12?? f**k that my power fc is 20x20 and i find that not enough.

also I find GT28* series turbos exhaust side too small, I made a huge mistake in choosing one. Would recommend GT3071R with the small option rear housing instead

[Syaoran]

Wow, is megasquirt only 12x12?? f**k that my power fc is 20x20 and i find that not enough.

also I find GT28* series turbos exhaust side too small, I made a huge mistake in choosing one. Would recommend GT3071R with the small option rear housing instead

Megasquirt is 16x16 if it's a Megasquirt-III, both for fuel and ignition maps. Megasquirt-I isn't worth the time or money.
I found that to be more than enough in my case. Given the price of the Megasquirt-II, the unit is more than worth it for a project like a 5S-FE turbo setup.

@OP: Regardless of what turbo setup or whatever you will need this:



The Megasquirt-II loves the stock sensor and (36-2) trigger wheel.

As for the turbo I would get the t3/t4 because of the availability and ease of repair/rebuild when it's needed.

The 98+ block isn't necessary as presure2 said BUT, if you can afford it I'd build that instead mainly because your engine I assume is running alright. I would just build another engine and keep yours stored in case of emergency.

Aside from that, the newer 98+ SHOULD bring everything you need (oil pump, crank angle sensor, timing gear with trigger wheel and both coil packs for a wasted spark ignition.

This post has been edited by Syaoran: Jul 5, 2013 - 11:30 PM

[lagos]

Wow, is megasquirt only 12x12?? f**k that my power fc is 20x20 and i find that not enough.

also I find GT28* series turbos exhaust side too small, I made a huge mistake in choosing one. Would recommend GT3071R with the small option rear housing instead

The timing map is 12x12 and the fuel map is 16x16.
I honestly don't know what you need more resolution for as the entire thing interpolates between all of the table values to give you basically infinite resolution. 32x32 tables might sound great on paper, but good luck tuning 1,024 individual cells.

But if thats still not enough, you can trigger the table switching function in the ecu to give you 30 x 16 or 16 x 30 fuel tables and 12 x 22 or 22 x 12 spark tables by having the ecu use the dual map feature that ms2 has.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jul 5, 2013 - 11:45 PM

[Syaoran]

Wow, is megasquirt only 12x12?? f**k that my power fc is 20x20 and i find that not enough.

also I find GT28* series turbos exhaust side too small, I made a huge mistake in choosing one. Would recommend GT3071R with the small option rear housing instead

The timing map is 12x12 and the fuel map is 16x16.
I honestly don't know what you need more resolution for as the entire thing interpolates between all of the table values to give you basically infinite resolution. 32x32 tables might sound great on paper, but good luck tuning 1,024 individual cells.

MS3 is 16x16 on both, too. I see that all the time, even on piggy backs like the AEM F/IC, where they boast a 20x17 table, I believe... but is it really that necessary? I mean, 12x12 in my case is more than enough. My tuner likes it that way and the car ran fine before the engine finally gave way after horrible years of abuse from a neglecting PO. The MS3 is 16x16 so if you're into larger numbers go ahead and get that (even though the main reason you should is because the MS3X outclasses most other ECUs in its neighborhood, considering feature:cost ratio)

[thorshammer]

Mate down at the wreckers has got a 5sfe out of a 98 Camry he'll sell to me for $220, the head is cactus but seeing as Im rebuilding its not going to cost me any more than if it was in good nick. Questions-can I drop the 98 eng. head and all straight in after rebuild and just change the ecu. I assume I have to to change the ecu cause of coil pack and crank sensor, il probably be running it unmodified for a while before I get Megasquirt and other stuff I need together.

[presure2]

Mate down at the wreckers has got a 5sfe out of a 98 Camry he'll sell to me for $220, the head is cactus but seeing as Im rebuilding its not going to cost me any more than if it was in good nick. Questions-can I drop the 98 eng. head and all straight in after rebuild and just change the ecu. I assume I have to to change the ecu cause of coil pack and crank sensor, il probably be running it unmodified for a while before I get Megasquirt and other stuff I need together.

No, u will use your stock ecu and accessories until you install the megasquirt.
The 96+ stuff requires obdII wiring to work properly.
You will just leave the crank sensor ect there, ready to use when u install the ms unit.

[Syaoran]

Mate down at the wreckers has got a 5sfe out of a 98 Camry he'll sell to me for $220, the head is cactus but seeing as Im rebuilding its not going to cost me any more than if it was in good nick. Questions-can I drop the 98 eng. head and all straight in after rebuild and just change the ecu. I assume I have to to change the ecu cause of coil pack and crank sensor, il probably be running it unmodified for a while before I get Megasquirt and other stuff I need together.

No, u will use your stock ecu and accessories until you install the megasquirt.
The 96+ stuff requires obdII wiring to work properly.
You will just leave the crank sensor ect there, ready to use when u install the ms unit.

^Exactly. Leave the crank sensor installed and take off the coilpacks and put the distributor in place before putting on the megasquirt.

Your ECU works fine as long as you use all of your accessories and wiring harness on the new engine.