Smaay ! V6 vs. Beams, Let's do this ! Options

[mi645]

I live in Cali and when people keep saying v6 will pass smog in Cali sure... It will pass in the Camry not the Celica u will not pass visual inspection first of all and second the test would be completely different. I'd have to get the car bar'd in order to have a legal swap so when everyone keeps saying Cali and v6 do not be fooled same process same bs ur gonna need a fake smog

[ILoveMySilly97]

I live in Cali and when people keep saying v6 will pass smog in Cali sure... It will pass in the Camry not the Celica u will not pass visual inspection first of all and second the test would be completely different. I'd have to get the car bar'd in order to have a legal swap so when everyone keeps saying Cali and v6 do not be fooled same process same bs ur gonna need a fake smog

the 1mzfe is a BAR'able engine for my car. As long as it's our of the solara, Camry, or the es300.

[kurt95gt]

I live in Cali and when people keep saying v6 will pass smog in Cali sure... It will pass in the Camry not the Celica u will not pass visual inspection first of all and second the test would be completely different. I'd have to get the car bar'd in order to have a legal swap so when everyone keeps saying Cali and v6 do not be fooled same process same bs ur gonna need a fake smog

Smaay done it without a problem

[Smaay]

I live in Cali and when people keep saying v6 will pass smog in Cali sure... It will pass in the Camry not the Celica u will not pass visual inspection first of all and second the test would be completely different. I'd have to get the car bar'd in order to have a legal swap so when everyone keeps saying Cali and v6 do not be fooled same process same bs ur gonna need a fake smog

the 1mzfe is a BAR'able engine for my car. As long as it's our of the solara, Camry, or the es300.

Yes the 1MZ is a passable engine. and as far as CA is concerned, im running a 1MZ. the rule is the engine has to be same year or newer than the car it gets installed in.

I live in Cali and when people keep saying v6 will pass smog in Cali sure... It will pass in the Camry not the Celica u will not pass visual inspection first of all and second the test would be completely different. I'd have to get the car bar'd in order to have a legal swap so when everyone keeps saying Cali and v6 do not be fooled same process same bs ur gonna need a fake smog

Smaay done it without a problem

I have not passed mine yet, i have not mounted the charcoal canister. because im using 2002 Solara ECU its looking for the newer style EVAP canister. Im going to get a 97 Camry ECU which uses the same canister as my 97 celica. If i had a 99 Celica i would be golden. in 99 the celica came with the newer style canister.

[ILoveMySilly97]

Too add on. I've been researching about BAR in Ca for a year now for my future engine rebuild or swap. Basically as long as the engine is the same year or newer and is TRANSFERRED from a car to a car them it's fine. If it's out of a truck to a car then it's a no go. So you can't get a 1mz out of the T100 and expect to pass smog in a Celica.

So far the only engine I have in mind of swapping into my car is the 1mzfe. If not, then I'll just rebuild my engine. The 5sfe is a fun engine to drive around with. The torque isn't bad but once you're in 3rd.....no fun. Lol.

[Smaay]

All things being equal I put my money of the V6. The thing with the FTO though is despite being a V6 it makes less torque than the 5S does. The 1MZ on the other hand makes over 200 ft lbs. Even with the Solara weighing in at some 3,250 pounds it'll hit 60 in 7.1 seconds. So imagine shaving off some 600-700 pounds off of that. It's still easier to get any part for the 1MZ though, no cross referencing and what not just find parts for a Camry and done. I don't see why you insist the 1MZ needs a rebuild though. Within my family alone there have been over 10 1MZ's most with over 200K miles on them with no problems whatsoever on the original engine. Yes yes the sludge problem, but that's only a problem if it was neglected. Besides, it's worth going 1MZ for the sole fact it won't sound like a bumble bee with gas.

this is all correct. I have never seen any correlation that a 1MZ sludges any more than any other engine. Lack of maintenance is all placed on the owner, you cant blame the engine for that. Its amazing how many people just put gas in and go. they never bother with anything else.



here is my dyno again. im making 215 ft lbs of TQ at 2500 RPMs.


you will never see results like that in a 4 banger N/A and i even doubt it boosted.

[RabidTRD]

The to(FTO?) is fwd not awd btw.
Had a read up on the FTO to make sure my info is right
147.1Kw @ 7,500rpm
200Nm @ 6,000rpm
5s-fe
101Kw @ 5,400rpm
197Nm @ 4,400rpm





But since this is beams vs v6/MZ lets concentrate on these engines

beams
146.9Kw @ 7,000rpm
206Nm @ 6,000rpm

1mz-fe vvti
156Kw @ 5,800rpm
328Nm @ 4,400rpm


vvti is continuously varying throughout the rpm range, it is based on load and rpm and doesn't 'kick in.' the intake cam advances low rpm and retards higher rpm. Can post my graphs of this if its of help to this discussion.


Since the 1mz-fe is an fe head, What is the head set up? how do the camshafts run, are they scissor cam like the 5sfe?




Also everyone posting, keep the posting clean

I was about to say, I didn't feel any "kick in" when driving Dustin's car. It was just continuous power all the way to 7k rpm.

[ILoveMySilly97]

^So the beams engine. The vvti is not set to switch on at a certain rpm but depends on how much gas you're putting into it? Meaning the vvti can be activated at a low rpm like 2500 and also can be revved at high rpm like 5000 without the vvti activated?

[mi645]

I've seen a bunch of mr2 v6 1mz swapped and went to bar and failed. Here personally in ca or waste a Ton of money just to get it approved

[kurt95gt]

I've seen a bunch of mr2 v6 1mz swapped and went to bar and failed. Here personally in ca or waste a Ton of money just to get it approved

OK we get it
In your eyes there in no legal swap for a celica in ca

[mi645]

Gosh... I was just saying... Lol what ever

[Box]

here is my dyno again. im making 215 ft lbs of TQ at 2500 RPMs.


you will never see results like that in a 4 banger N/A and i even doubt it boosted.

The Saab Viggen made 252 ft lb at 2,500 RPM with a turbo 2.3 I4. That's about the only one the comes to mind at the moment though.

This post has been edited by Box: Sep 25, 2013 - 3:03 PM

[RabidTRD]

^So the beams engine. The vvti is not set to switch on at a certain rpm but depends on how much gas you're putting into it? Meaning the vvti can be activated at a low rpm like 2500 and also can be revved at high rpm like 5000 without the vvti activated?

That's what it felt like. Dustin may have to correct me on this if I'm wrong though. It's not like a VTEC system at all and feels much more refined and consistent. VTEC feels like an underpowered car with a turbo strapped on that is too big and has a lot of turbo lag.

[BonzaiCelica]

FTO is a 2.0 liter v6 engine thats why SS-III beats it.

stock for stock i'd choose the beams over a pre 97 1mzfe. the vvt-i 1mzfe that comes with 210 hp stock I would put in my celica. i just don't like the fact that gearing won't be well suited with the transmission because the 1mzfe makes power at 6k as to where the beams make power at 7,000 rpm. the heavier e153 trans wouldn't be an option for me

with my beams the gears are just where i like them

and smaay how you compare those dynos with a stock beams. you have an aftermarket ecu and tune/hybrid motor. personally i just like the fact that beams came in a celica from the factory.

smaay you drive a supra and turbo 2zz. your so accustomed to torque you can't live without it. ha

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Sep 25, 2013 - 8:00 PM

[kurt95gt]

FTO is a 2.0 liter v6 engine thats why SS-III beats it.

stock for stock i'd choose the beams over a pre 97 1mzfe. the vvt-i 1mzfe that comes with 210 hp stock I would put in my celica. i just don't like the fact that gearing won't be well suited with the transmission because the 1mzfe makes power at 6k as to where the beams make power at 7,000 rpm. the heavier e153 trans wouldn't be an option for me

with my beams the gears are just where i like them

and smaay how you compare those dynos with a stock beams. you have an aftermarket ecu and tune/hybrid motor. personally i just like the fact that beams came in a celica from the factory.

smaay you drive a supra and turbo 2zz. your so accustomed to torque you can't live without it. ha

No those numbers are from the full 3mz running a stock 1mz ecu I do beleave
Don't think the hybrid made it to the dyno

[Batman722]

Smaay, you're diluting facts.

First, I'm well aware you're set up is more powerful than any N/A Beams, in fact we all are. You have a rebuilt 3mz bottom end with 1m heads and electronics with an e153, ect. That's a fantastic set up without a doubt.

I'm stating my stock Beams would run (and IMO) take a swapped 1mz-fe in a Celica. Their overall stats are close and I think the Beams would pull it. It's just a matter of time before it's settled irl.

No n/a 4cyl would beat a 3mz or your hybrid. Case closed.

The facts I see you diluting are this:
Cost of swap and ease of swap.

Starting with ease, both motors fit in the bay. A V6 would need a custom pass mount, a Beams would need stock. You say the V6's wiring was almost plug and play, that's BS. Beams is 3-4 wires, plugs in, starts, drives. How about exhaust manifolds and ECUs ? You mixed and matched parts to make yours work. Beams is all stock. That's all I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure there is a few more I'll think of later.

Cost: My Beams w/tranny, ECU, ect was $1654 to my door. We both need clutches, I replaced timing belt, water pump, tensioners, couple of gaskets, ect, nothing you haven't done or wouldn't do. My Beams swap cost me about $2300 maybe (+exhaust), and that's pushing it.
You rebuilt your motor, used an e153, MR2 inners, all trac outers, & spacer, couple of mounts from an st205, mixed and matched parts to make yours work. All of those cost good $ + the price of the motor(s). Not to mention you still want to get a different canister and ECU, those aren't free for most people. I'm sure you'll tell me I'm wrong but I would guess that the e153 +axles, mounts, ecus, headers, the machine shop work, and clutch, gaskets, ect, would be around $1600. Now the average person can't do the wiring, so you have to factor in how much tweek or mr220v charges for wiring, and you're at $2000 + the cost of a motor - US motor, most likely higher mileage and neglected, which means a rebuild, which costs more $.

You cannot tell me that swapping a V6 is cheaper and easier than a Beams.
Maybe you get parts and have work done free or cheap, I assume you have very good resources but in reality the average person doesn't. These things add up.

[RabidTRD]

I'm still going to run a BEAMS when I can afford it. I've already got the suspension where I want it, exhaust is good. I have a Tanabe Medallion G-Power long-tube header that's designed for the 3S-GE sitting on my shelf next to me, waiting to be installed, but I might just wait until I get the BEAMS.

I need a swap personally that is simply plug and play. The BEAMS is that. It's more cost effective, and time efficient. I have only one vehicle. I would take a week off of work to install it, figure out the bugs and get it ready to be run long term. I don't have many months and a second car to use while figuring out all the BS I'd have to deal with in the 1MZ.

In my mind, the BEAMS is far superior, that's why I'm really curious to see how this match up goes.

...and Box, your note about the "exhaust tone and how the V6 sounds better," you haven't heard a properly done exhaust on a Toyota engine then. Mine is never raspy, never ricey, just deep and rough. Dustin has a perfect sounding exhaust on his BEAMS. The Yamaha head sings a beautiful tone through it.

[Smaay]

and smaay how you compare those dynos with a stock beams. you have an aftermarket ecu and tune/hybrid motor. personally i just like the fact that beams came in a celica from the factory.

Smaay, you're diluting facts.

First, I'm well aware you're set up is more powerful than any N/A Beams, in fact we all are. You have a rebuilt 3mz bottom end with 1m heads and electronics with an e153, ect. That's a fantastic set up without a doubt.

I'm stating my stock Beams would run (and IMO) take a swapped 1mz-fe in a Celica. Their overall stats are close and I think the Beams would pull it. It's just a matter of time before it's settled irl.

No n/a 4cyl would beat a 3mz or your hybrid. Case closed.

The facts I see you diluting are this:
Cost of swap and ease of swap.

Starting with ease, both motors fit in the bay. A V6 would need a custom pass mount, a Beams would need stock. You say the V6's wiring was almost plug and play, that's BS. Beams is 3-4 wires, plugs in, starts, drives. How about exhaust manifolds and ECUs ? You mixed and matched parts to make yours work. Beams is all stock. That's all I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure there is a few more I'll think of later.

Cost: My Beams w/tranny, ECU, ect was $1654 to my door. We both need clutches, I replaced timing belt, water pump, tensioners, couple of gaskets, ect, nothing you haven't done or wouldn't do. My Beams swap cost me about $2300 maybe (+exhaust), and that's pushing it.
You rebuilt your motor, used an e153, MR2 inners, all trac outers, & spacer, couple of mounts from an st205, mixed and matched parts to make yours work. All of those cost good $ + the price of the motor(s). Not to mention you still want to get a different canister and ECU, those aren't free for most people. I'm sure you'll tell me I'm wrong but I would guess that the e153 +axles, mounts, ecus, headers, the machine shop work, and clutch, gaskets, ect, would be around $1600. Now the average person can't do the wiring, so you have to factor in how much tweek or mr220v charges for wiring, and you're at $2000 + the cost of a motor - US motor, most likely higher mileage and neglected, which means a rebuild, which costs more $.

You cannot tell me that swapping a V6 is cheaper and easier than a Beams.
Maybe you get parts and have work done free or cheap, I assume you have very good resources but in reality the average person doesn't. These things add up.

didnt you guys read my first post. im using an un opened right off the shelf 3MZ. i took off the 3MZ intake manifold and put on my 1MZ manifold. Im using a stock 2002 Solara ECU. i have never used an aftermarket ECU.

I got the engine with harness for 700, ECU was 100, clutch disk would be something like 60-100. and wiring i could have done myself, i am an electrical engineer, im just lazy and didnt have the time.

so right there i could have done this swap for about 1000 bucks.

I chose to do extra things like E153, fidanza Flywheel, and a few misc things.

the passenger mount i did fab up myself which can be duplicated.

[njccmd2002]

IMO the only worth v6 engine to put extra work to wire in the celica now a days is a 2gr.

Beams was easy for me, ive never done it before, with the right tools, anyone can wire and swap the beams. Its like going to the lego store and just putting in the new block you just got.

But to each is own. I will not spend time researching, or brainstorming on the older v6 engines. sorry guys, im a practical guy.

The beams swap in my case, i dropped it in. with 35 k miles, i did not even change the clutch. well at least the first year.

10 years ago, the 1mz was probably the right choice, beams were not available as now, and the 2gr were a dream.

But times change. Its like still believing that older Ford vehicles will not nickle and dime you to death, and that Kias warranty is the best on the market.

[njccmd2002]

edit;

its like swapping a 2nd gen 3sgte today, when the 3rd gens are so easy to get..