Smaay ! V6 vs. Beams, Let's do this ! Options

[Batman722]

OK, there has been debates left and right about this.
You're a big believer in you're V6, and you should be.
I'm a believer in both.

First, I have respect for a good V6. The 1mz-fe isn't the best IMO, a 3mz-fe is better IMO.
A power of a 1mz-fe comparable to a Beams all day. The power delivery and torque curve is very different, yes but you can never compare a GE head to an FE head.
You have a 1mz/3mz hybrid, that's like saying a hybrid 5s-gte is better than a stock 3sgte.

I have a Beams in my Celica. Bone stock (except an exhaust) with the LSD tranny it came with.
The Beams is great down low and booms after 4K rpms and pulls hard until red line, the advantage of VVT-I with a GE head.

Ease of swap ? Beams in a heartbeat.
The Beams is close to plug and play, you can use a s54 or use the s54 w/lsd with the motor with no custom mounts, no custom anything really.
Reliability ? Beams. Any V6 (1m or 3m) should be rebuilt. You'd be a fool not to, we all know why.
Parts availability ? Both. Beams parts are available in the US. There is virtually no part I couldn't get from another toyota that's used on a Beams.
Power ? 1mz-fe or Beams ? IMO Beams. I have driven the 1m in a Camry, I'm sure it would be more fun in a Celica, until someone proves me wrong the Beams is my answer.
3mz-fe ? all day over a Beams, but cost is much higher.
Cost of swap (1mz-fe) ? Beams is less a landslide. Why ? Well...a 1m motor is cheaper but it gonna need a rebuild - no doubt (always do a compression test first). Most people can't rebuild an engine ($), you should use an e153 with hybrid axles, a custom mount (don't you sell one for around $200 ?), the wiring - for an average person, it's gonna cost them to have someone do it, how about the power steering pump, AC, throttle cable, ect. The Beams is a Celica motor going into a Celica. The only difficult part is wiring, which is piss easy for an average person. There is no custom anything, except maybe a tach adapter or use a stock Beams cluster and no adapter needed.

Overall I would (and did) put a Beams in a Celica over a 1mz-fe.
A 3mz-fe would be better but I don't like the drive by wire set up, problems will arise.
A 2gr would be overkill and would kill our 15-19 year old cars.

[kurt95gt]

Can't wait to see what smaay has to say

[ILoveMySilly97]

Hmmm.....this is going to be interesting. Lol. The only reason why id choose the 1mz is because living in Cali. I don't have the luxury to own a beams motor......:'(

Can't wait to see what smaay has to say

Kurt you got the 1mz. Put some opinions here. Lol.

This post has been edited by ILoveMySilly97: Sep 24, 2013 - 11:48 PM

[kurt95gt]

Hmmm.....this is going to be interesting. Lol. The only reason why id choose the 1mz is because living in Cali. I don't have the luxury to own a beams motor......:'(

Can't wait to see what smaay has to say

Kurt you got the 1mz. Put some opinions here. Lol.

Dustin is already aware of my opinion ATM
We had a nice talk about it while I was driving his beams lol

[ILoveMySilly97]

Lucky! So how'd you like it? Was it what you expected? Or no?

[kurt95gt]

Lucky! So how'd you like it? Was it what you expected? Or no?

It was basically how I thought it would be smooth from idle to 7k an very quick on the highway
I have drove richee3s beams before too
Dustins is a step up from dans but a 1 up on a 1mz idk
For me driving both the line of witch is better I've very blurred
My 1mz feel like it pull alot harder from idle to 6k than the beams
But the beams is so smooth that you don't notice how fast the power comes in.
I honestly think it will come down to how well either car is tuned an the skill of the driver
Personally I'd give the win in a race to the 1mz because it'll get the beams where it counts
The 1mz on good tires will out run the beams to the 60 foot mark in a drag race. An if you can beat some one to the 60 foot in cars that are fairly even matched you'll have a hard time catching up after the 60 foot
The beams is a fun highway motor
You can rev the balls off of it an fly by traffic
But you can't get away with that so easy intown
The 1mz is a monster in town since your at lower rpms
But falls alittle short on the top end on the highway

[bnr32celica]

OK, here goes...

Power steering pump: I used the 1MZ pump with the GT lines.

AC: I used the GT compressor with the 1MZ's AC clutch and pulley.

Custom mount: Smaay's the man. I'm using an S54, so that's really the only mount you should need to buy. I filled my crossmember mounts with urethane and some unknown chemicals that made them very hard.

Trans: I'm gonna use an S54. There's a clutch kit out there for it already, but I'm using a better disk. You can be a pal and bring me that pressure plate Manny has this weekend, and then you can DRIVE a 1MZ.

Wiring: I paid someone to do it. Cost me way less than the other guys and looks just as nice. Works too.

Engine health: I heard mine run and drive, I think I'll be OK without a rebuild. This goes without saying though, if you can't read a compression chart and drop a pan, you shouldn't swap anyways. I almost have to throw it out there it took Dan THREE BEAMS to get one good one, so there's bad apples in every bunch. Saying every V6 should be rebuilt is a generalization. If the only thread I read about a BEAMS swap was Dan's, I'd say every BEAMS should be rebuilt. See what I'm getting at?

Now, I have driven a V6 in a 5GC, and also Dustin's BEAMS as well. There are things I like about both, and things I don't like about both as well. I'm still a whore for torque and balls down low (which is why I have a Saab), but I also like the feeling of a high-revving 4banger as well. The tipping point for me is the need to be different though. Seems everyone is BEAMS swapping. Never followed the pack before, not going to now. For about an hour, Iseriously considered selling my V6 setup, but then I realized I would ultimately be following the leader. No, I'm not the first to V6, but I'm the first to do it my way, and that's a good feeling.

End of the day though, to each their own, I like 'em both and wouldn't look either horse in he mouth.

[kurt95gt]

5gc with a v6?? Witch v6
Not a lot of those either

[bnr32celica]

5gc with a v6?? Witch v6
Not a lot of those either

3VZ. My harness builder has one. Fun car, especially with no interior haha.

[kurt95gt]

Yea the 1mz will be faster

[Rusty]

Slightly off topic but on topic.

A former 6GC NZ member on here used to own a BEAMS, cant remember if it was a SS-III or a SS-II as he's owned both, was telling me how his friend had a FTO (for you USA members this is a V6 FWD Mitsubishi, which looks similar to a Supra, and this was the Mivec engine (which is the same as Toyota's VVT-I & Nissan's VCT)

Although the specs of the FTO where slightly in favour, the ST202 just pulled away from it.

So with that would be interesting to see how a 1MZ-FE goes.


The redtop BEAMS does fall down a bit in aftermarket support imo. Where as the 3S-GE, has lots of parts, due to the interchangeability with its GTE counterpart

Corolla's(Toyota Blade Master) have 2GR's in them

[kurt95gt]

Slightly off topic but on topic.

A former 6GC NZ member on here used to own a BEAMS, cant remember if it was a SS-III or a SS-II as he's owned both, was telling me how his friend had a FTO (for you USA members this is a V6 FWD Mitsubishi, which looks similar to a Supra, and this was the Mivec engine (which is the same as Toyota's VVT-I & Nissan's VCT)

Although the specs of the FTO where slightly in favour, the ST202 just pulled away from it.

So with that would be interesting to see how a 1MZ-FE goes.


The redtop BEAMS does fall down a bit in aftermarket support imo. Where as the 3S-GE, has lots of parts, due to the interchangeability with its GTE counterpart

Corolla's(Toyota Blade Master) have 2GR's in them

The to is slowed down by the awd trans just like the 3sgte isn't as fast in a gt4 as a fwd celica

[Box]

All things being equal I put my money of the V6. The thing with the FTO though is despite being a V6 it makes less torque than the 5S does. The 1MZ on the other hand makes over 200 ft lbs. Even with the Solara weighing in at some 3,250 pounds it'll hit 60 in 7.1 seconds. So imagine shaving off some 600-700 pounds off of that. It's still easier to get any part for the 1MZ though, no cross referencing and what not just find parts for a Camry and done. I don't see why you insist the 1MZ needs a rebuild though. Within my family alone there have been over 10 1MZ's most with over 200K miles on them with no problems whatsoever on the original engine. Yes yes the sludge problem, but that's only a problem if it was neglected. Besides, it's worth going 1MZ for the sole fact it won't sound like a bumble bee with gas.

[ILoveMySilly97]

Interesting read so far. Now it's getting me to think that these two engines are like a turbo vs a supercharger. Lol. The turbo being the BEAMS since you get the power once the vvti kicks in and the 1mzfe being the supercharger since you're generally using all the engine output power through out the acceleration. Lol.

BTW, don't mind my comments. I have no experience in any of these engines. Lol. Just throwing random opinions and thoughts out there.

[Rusty]

The to(FTO?) is fwd not awd btw.
Had a read up on the FTO to make sure my info is right
147.1Kw @ 7,500rpm
200Nm @ 6,000rpm
5s-fe
101Kw @ 5,400rpm
197Nm @ 4,400rpm





But since this is beams vs v6/MZ lets concentrate on these engines

beams
146.9Kw @ 7,000rpm
206Nm @ 6,000rpm

1mz-fe vvti
156Kw @ 5,800rpm
328Nm @ 4,400rpm


vvti is continuously varying throughout the rpm range, it is based on load and rpm and doesn't 'kick in.' the intake cam advances low rpm and retards higher rpm. Can post my graphs of this if its of help to this discussion.


Since the 1mz-fe is an fe head, What is the head set up? how do the camshafts run, are they scissor cam like the 5sfe?




Also everyone posting, keep the posting clean

[njccmd2002]

[Box]

Had a dyslexia moment and thought it said 143 ft lb, still that's only 3 more ft lb than the 5S and is low for a V6 all things considered. Plus other things to take into consideration would be transmission and final ratios of the FTO.

Anyhow, it'd really be close between the two provided the cars are equally set up. The one good thing is if both cars have the S54 it boils down to just the engine, and this is what I'd like to see. Perfect scenario you have two GT's with the only difference being the BEAMS or 1MZ-FE; suspension the same, wheels and tires the same, so on and so forth. Even go as far to find a semi-pro driver that'd be unbiased to drive both cars to ensure fairness. Then it totally comes down to the engine with no other variables being involved. Then have a variety of tests: 0-60, 0-100, 50-70, 70-85, 70-100, and 1/4 mile. From there could do a slalom and skid pad test, and then find a nice road course to get some lap times. That'd establish a pretty good benchmark of what both swaps are capable of and put any disputes to rest. I think it'd make for a fun event as well, everyone could get together and see both cars perform in person. Of course the problem is making two equal cars and all of the work involved in doing such.

[presure2]

this thread is like the special olympics.

[Box]

this thread is like the special olympics.

If by that you mean that it's full of inspirational and heartwarming moments, then yes.

This post has been edited by Box: Sep 25, 2013 - 5:56 AM

[Smaay]

Dang i wish i saw this last night. It was getting late for me.

ok I originally did have a hybrid. 3MZ block with 1MZ heads. for some reason i cant explain since i totally rebuilt that engine, it spun a rod bearing. Well when i was shopping for the Sienna Axle carrier it was still attached to a very clean 2005 3MZ-FE. so for 700 bucks i bought the entire thing. in the course of 1 day, i pulled my hybrid, and installed the 3MZ. now for the good part. I have no DBW, im using the 1MZ intake manifold and throttle body. I had to slightly modify the throttle body because the water ports were hitting the slightly larger 3MZ heads. No big deal since i never run water through the throttle body anyways.

now for ease of the swap, it was a perfect plug and play. well almost. because i wanted to i also bought a Solara E153 so i needed axles, the nice thing is i had a set right here for my 7th gen. you see we figured out a way to adapt the E153 to bolt to a 2ZZ for us big power guys. I could have easily used my stock S54 and only needed a new clutch disk.

Now for power, you cant compare a Camry to a Celica, the Camry weighs so much more, and was it a 5 speed? thats another big difference.

You have seen my Dyno im sure. I make 20 more HP 2000 RPMs sooner.

ill add more, gotta do some work.