Rays Super Cell Mod Options

[yellowchinaman]

What is it?
To combine a powerful 12V cell with Super capacitors to make a Super Cell which replaces the normal lead car battery.
Take a look at this video from lasersaber which was made in 2013

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8miq6sDy0wA...avr&index=5


This video inspired me to do this mod. As we begin the transaction to move away from fossil fuel to electric cars, manufacturers had been pushing the advancement in power cell technology.
Better ways to harness, store and utilising power effectively and efficiently. Capacitors now days are no longer like the ones you see in retro hifi amplifiers. They charge and discharge incredibly fast, manager greater power capacity and can hold the charge with minimal loss of power.
The battery its self is slowly advancing too. We have Lithium cells, Lipo, Lifepo and lifepo4 technology around in our every day electronics, many of us are still running liquid or dry Lead cells in our cars.


How:
My Super cell will be very similar to the one lasersaber built.
I too will be using 6 x 2.5V 233F Super capacitors making it capable of managing 15V max.
Theatrically when charged with 12V or more, this alone will start your car up.
I managed to fine one which was built and already encased and weighs 2.5kg.
If your car doesn't start and your capacitors are drained, you will be stuck.
This is why you need a 12V source to feed the capacitors when the engine is off.
This is why you need a hybrid.
The source will be feeding the capacitors after it's been discharged so you'll have a couple of shots at starting up.
For this I chose to go with a 12V Lithium cell which only weighs 500g. Yes that's just 0.5kg!!!

So why didn't I choose Lithium over Lipo or more advanced cells?
Well if you look at the video, the hybrid used by lasersaber had a lipo pack from an RC car. Though very powerful, Lipo doest handle power fluctuations very well and gets damaged very easily. That's why with a jump start it got damaged.
The Lithium cell I bought was designed to be used for motorcycles which charges from the alternator just like a car.
Its very stable and you don't need any power management systems to prevent it from blowing up. However you must make sure your alternator doesn't put out more then 15V.





Why?
Well we all know about the boot relations people do. To free space at the front and to manage weight distribution.
However I found this sometimes not as beneficial as what most people make out as you have to invest in a good battery which isn't big and heavy. Fit in the back loosing some boot space. Run heavy gauge copper cable through the length of the car. Some people earth it in the boot area instead of running an earth cable back to the front and this effects both start up and electrical performance of the car.
If you run an earth back to the front you're adding again more KG's.

As an alternative to this you can loose the weight instead of just moving the weight. Also the cost can even be less then a boot relocation with an expensive lead battery.

In terms of weight comparison:
The average lead car battery is between 22-26kgs. This varies depending on the car and size.
I abandoned my old Halfords battery which was about 23kg for a small racing Caterham Banner battery which weights just 8KG's. The Banner provides 30A of cranking power which was just enough for the engine to turn over. However this battery only lasts about 6 months before it starts to deteriorate and not hold its charge.
I got fed up changing the battery fluids and keeping the car on trickle charge.
Now the Super Cell Mod only weights 3Kg and is about 1 10th the size of my original battery and 1 5th the size of my Banner.



My installation:
Everything is wired up as normal. The Lithium cell replaces the battery. The Super capacitors piggy back as close as possible to the starter motor.




How does this work:
So the 12V lithium is there as a power bank to store and feed the capacitors.
Also its only drain is for the alarm and immobiliser.
The capacitors will charge and hold the 12V power till the ignition is turned. When that happens it promptly discharged everything to the starter motor giving it a powerful cranking power to start the engine.
Once the engine starts, the alternator kicks in and keeps the engine running.
The Alternator will also immediately charges the capacitors and the battery.
The battery only takes 6minutes to fully charge from flat which means by the time the engine warms up, your battery will be at its peak.
The super capacitors only take 30 seconds to charge ready for another fire up.
I am expecting these fully charged capacitors to stay charged for around 2 weeks without running before loosing it's power and the Lithium cell to keep the alarm and immobiliser running for around a year and still feed the capacitors.

The down side:
With such a small storage bank you do have to change a few habits and loose some luxuries.
For instance.
If you have a powerful audio system which works beyond your alternators output, you will suffer from power starvation.
With the engine off you can not run any electrical s such as lights, heating or entertainment as that will drain the stored and even prevent start up.
You need to get into the habit of closing all your doors and make sure everything is off before turning the key. Having your lights on or heater blowing or having your door open means the cabin lights can be on and be a drain. This hinders your start up by draining the capacitors.
So do consider the down sides if you where to do this mod.

[njccmd2002]

nice, like it too many downsides, tough

[Syaoran]

Total cost for both?

[Malek]

Theatrically when charged with 12V or more, this alone will start your car up.

Also, good job

[Bitter]

I'm running this.
http://antigravitybatteries.com/ag-1601/
Works great! Cranks the 11.5:1 2ZZ no problem. It's really small, everyone at the midwest meet was like 'damn it's tiny'. It weighs 4lbs with two SAE brass posts threaded into it for the stock battery cable connections.

[yellowchinaman]

I'm running this.
http://antigravitybatteries.com/ag-1601/
Works great! Cranks the 11.5:1 2ZZ no problem. It's really small, everyone at the midwest meet was like 'damn it's tiny'. It weighs 4lbs with two SAE brass posts threaded into it for the stock battery cable connections.

Thats a good battery and light weight too but at 16A its not enough to start the GT4.
Manufacturer recomends 60A and my Caterham Banner is 30A and thats just enough to turn it over.

Price? In total this setup cost me about £180

[Bitter]

I don't know where you got 16A from, it's rated at 480CA and 260CCA. It's "15 Amp Hour" capacity which is a measure of how long it can sustain a draw for over a period of time before going below 10.5 volts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIoLDy5uKxI

I did the same demo at the Celica meet, started 3 times back to back, I'd do it more than 3 times but the engine will begin to flood itself out and then get really hard to start. It will start a GT4, it will start a 6.2L V8, it will start pretty much anything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nm7bl39uxk Watch this.

[Box]

Well, with having a manual you can always pop start it. This would be great for a track day car, on an every day driver I'm not sure if it's really worth saving the 40 pounds though. Still, very cool indeed.

[Bitter]

I just had $250 burning a hole in my pocket and a 5 year old lead acid battery that was starting to test low.

[yellowchinaman]

Yes its not everyones mod and besides not using electricals when engine is off everything is the same as normal when the engine is running.
This is an alternative to a track car battery mod. IMO this is better then a boot relocation because the life span onf the super capacitors is over 100 years being charged and discharged over 20 times a day.
Also with the lithium lasting a year without charge means I can can go away for months without it running flat.
I just have to start the car up for 6 minutes every year.
Hows that for reliability and long term investment?

[Bitter]

I just caught that's a lipo battery. I thought those had some pretty sensitive charging requirements?
Actually no you can't leave the car sit for months unless you disconnect the battery from the car because parasitic draw will drain the battery down below starting voltage after about a week. I bought a float charger/lithium iron phosphate battery conditioner for storage with the battery connected like if I'm gone for a week. Mine may be ok for a week or weeks but I'd rather err on the side of caution as I usually do.

What's the self discharge rate of the caps? Won't that also be a parasitic draw on the small lipo battery? I had looked at a setup like this before settling on LIFEPO4 battery chemistry. I may add a bank of caps to my winter car but I need to learn more about the self discharge rate and calculate that into the draw.

This post has been edited by Bitter: May 21, 2014 - 11:59 AM

[Special_Edy]

Just put a hand crank somewhere to manually charge the capacitors in the event of a low charge, a small solar cell in the window would probably charge their low capacitance very quickly quickly as well.

Better to mount a battery in the middle of the car and as low to the ground as possible rather than in the trunk. Putting a battery in the trunk does help with weight distribution, but mounting it near the Center of Gravity for the car will decrease the moment of inertia the vehicle experiences while turning or going over bumps. Yoh cant mount a lead acid battery in the passenger compartment due to the fumes but you can with capacitors or a sealed battery.

I wouldnt worrry about the lower capacitance causing issues with high loads such as the headlights or audio system. The natural reaction for the electrical system will be to simply run at a lower voltage. Amperage draw will remain constant and so nothing will cease to function, simply the output (wattage) of the affected devices will diminish. So your headlights would dim, the blower would spin slower or the stereo wouldnt hit as hard.
Current(amps)×Voltage=Power(watts)

A battery has limited amperage due to internal resistance, hence the CCA rating. A capacitor has almost no internal resistance, so it is able to deliver limitless amperage (probably millions of CCA, although for a very breif time). The capicitor is unlikely to be overloaded.

Car batterys are designed to start the car, they have very poor characteristics as a deep cycle. Voltage and amperage drop at 75%-85% of full charge. A deep cycle will deliver full power until <25% and a Lithium battery will probably function till its only a few % charged. A very small lithium or deep cycle battery combined with a bank of capacitors will probably deliver similar or superior performance to a 40lb lead acid battery. The only drawback is allowing a breif time for the capacitors to recharge if they get drained, snce they will drain far quicker than the booster battery can replenish (say if you were cranking the car for a long period, youd have to stop occasionally to recharge the capacitors).

This post has been edited by Special_Edy: May 21, 2014 - 4:47 PM

[Bitter]

So how did this work out?

[955SFE]

Where did you purchase the items? I am very interested. I was planning to relocate my battery to the trunk. This would probably much easier route. I don't worry cause I only have my stock audio system.

[Bitter]

Where did you purchase the items? I am very interested. I was planning to relocate my battery to the trunk. This would probably much easier route. I don't worry cause I only have my stock audio system.

http://shop.antigravitybatteries.com/antig...tteries-ag1601/

You can find them cheaper than there, awesome battery.
http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=358982

Disregard my dirty engine and poor mounting, I didn't have time to make it pretty. Battery can be laid anyway, even upside down. It's safe to use inside the passenger cabin even! It's not like the Boeing or laptop batteries that catch fire, totally different battery chemistry going on.


I located the battery he's using, it's only rated for 6 amp hour and 150CCA which is awfully tiny for a car to use, especially with ignition off draws. Assuming a 30 miliamp draw it would take about 20 hours (6 amp hour/0.030 amps draw) to drain the battery flat dead. I believe that battery is just too small to use in a car. 30 milliamp is assuming the normal draw for a stock car with no add ons like alarms or aftermarket radio's that consume more power with the key off.

I'm terrible at math, I forgot a zero, 200 hours until totally dead, but at 1/2 capacity I doubt that battery would start the car.

This post has been edited by Bitter: Aug 24, 2014 - 11:36 PM

[yellowchinaman]

The battery does not start the car at all. The capacitors does all the work and that remains fully charged the moment the engine is off. All the battery does is feed my alarm which has the same draw as a motorcycle alarm.

[Bitter]

How long do the caps retain a charge without the battery in place?

[yellowchinaman]

not 100% sure but last month I had the alt cable disconnected for the entire month and I had 0.4v drop in power in 4 weeks. Thats with the lithium cell attached still.

[Bitter]

Very good! Sure sounds like you need an alternator.

[yellowchinaman]

Im just going to buy a new one eventually because the cost of refurbishment is not too far off.