Looking for Expert Opinions, What would you pay for this car, assuming you WANTED to buy it. Options

[Langing]

1997 ST Limited Edition Celica Liftback 5-speed 1.8L L4 engine. . . ABS, Alloy Wheels, Leather Seats. . . Very Clean. . . approx. 100k miles.

Photos show both the outside and inside were well kept and in very good condition. They are asking $5.5K!

What's the maximum you would offer for this vehicle?

[Barbershop]

1997 ST Limited Edition Celica Liftback 5-speed 1.8L L4 engine. . . ABS, Alloy Wheels, Leather Seats. . . Very Clean. . . approx. 100k miles.

Photos show both the outside and inside were well kept and in very good condition. They are asking $5.5K!

What's the maximum you would offer for this vehicle?

When I bought my 1999 Celica GT last January it had 113k miles and was in very good condition. Mine also had one previous owner who babied the car and a clean title as well. I paid $5,200.

In my opinion, that's not a bad price if it has a clean title and one previous owner. If it were me, I would try to offer either $5,000 and $5,250. If not, then the most I would pay is $5,500.

[Keiri]

Nothing more than $4000 since it's an ST with 100k miles; I paid around $6k for my 99 GT that had 109k miles in 2009.

[VavAlephVav]

http://www.kbb.com/toyota/celica/1997-toyo...ition=very-good

Kelly blue book says $2500 from a person $3200 from a dealer. (but that changes slightly depending on your location) from there it's a matter of how well maintained it has been. have the struts and mounts been replaced? does the motor need any work? has it ever had a head gasket? do they actually do sheet like flush all the brake fluid every 5 years?
open the radiator and look at the coolant and check the radiator cap/overflow tube for gunk.
don't be too fooled by a pretty looking paint job. anytime you buy a used car you're probably going to spend another couple thousand dollars fixing some things unless you buy it from somebody who was real good about maintenance and fixing things.

I wouldn't give somebody much more than what KBB says unless they've done lots of repair work to it

This post has been edited by VavAlephVav: Aug 1, 2014 - 12:56 PM

[Langing]

http://www.kbb.com/toyota/celica/1997-toyo...ition=very-good

Kelly blue book says $2500 from a person $3200 from a dealer. (but that changes slightly depending on your location) from there it's a matter of how well maintained it has been. have the struts and mounts been replaced? does the motor need any work? has it ever had a head gasket? do they actually do sheet like flush all the brake fluid every 5 years?
open the radiator and look at the coolant and check the radiator cap/overflow tube for gunk.
don't be too fooled by a pretty looking paint job. anytime you buy a used car you're probably going to spend another couple thousand dollars fixing some things unless you buy it from somebody who was real good about maintenance and fixing things.

I wouldn't give somebody much more than what KBB says unless they've done lots of repair work to it

Right, one way to approach making an offer to buy such a car is to begin with the Kelly Blue Book valuation.

The car is being sold by a dealer, so the KBB 'dealer' value for this car, in VERY GOOD condition, is $3,200. So, it should be priced by this dealer close to $3,200. The error variance of that number must be something like a couple hundred dollars, plus or minus, so actually there would be a range of values, something like $3,000 to $3,400, statistically based on what many people have paid for the same car in the same condition category.

That's more than $2,000 less that the dealer's listed price of about $5,500!

Until you brought it up, I hadn't considered the weight I should place on a car's value due to the quality of its maintenance, but now it seems obvious, as high quality maintenance represents sunk costs expended by the owner, costs I would not have to bear in the near future if the owner had done his best regarding maintenance. For example, if the owner had replaced the timing belt, all the struts, all the wheel bearings, all the suspension bushings, all the motor mounts, and on and on, when checking wear items as the maintenance schedule recommends, he would have added a lot of (what I consider hidden) value to the car.

Said the other way around, his quality of maintenance would likely have saved me a lot of money, money that I wouldn't have to shell out just after buying the car. It's just like you said, "anytime you buy a used car you're probably going to spend another couple thousand dollars fixing some things unless you buy it from somebody who was real good about maintenance and fixing things." And that couple thousand is my bargaining room, if I happened to have the actual maintenance information.

Say his maintenance quality was perfect, suggesting my expenses after purchase were zero, then the price range, based on KBB, might be reasonably extended to $5,000 to $5,400, because the owner already paid that extra couple thousand and now it is part of the car's actual value, just as improvements add to the value of a house. NOTE WELL: That is only true if his maintenance quality was perfect, and we live in the real world!

Since it's a dealer, maintenance information might be hard to come by! I could only look for evidence the car had been well maintained. To be totally fair I should be given the car's actual maintenance history, so I could know what deferred maintenance costs were ahead of me.

Is there some good reason, legal or otherwise, not to contact the previous owner?

VERY GOOD CONDITION seems a subjective evaluation that is probably based on someone looking at the car, its outside, its inside, its engine compartment, its wheels, and not much more. I'm sure there are plenty of car owners who keep their vehicles washed, waxed, and very clean inside, but don't take mechanical maintenance all that seriously. Thus, I would guess that KBB does not take maintenance into consideration, except as a byproduct of the fact that when a car appraises in the VERY GOOD CONDITION category it raises the probability that the owner was taking mechanical maintenance seriously.

[Keiri]

I know the car you're speaking of - it's dark green, right?

Looking at the pictures, the seats are in BAD shape since the rear ones have tons of wrinkles - noticeable wrinkles - that leather should not have and the fronts have creases and dirt on them; knock around 900 off the price just to have the seats done. The license plate bezel is missing clear coat and peeling as well which means at least a 300 dollar re-paint on that part.

After seeing all of that, I'd want maintenance records and history for all owners (if possible) and even then I'd only offer about $3,000 max for it.

It's overpriced for what it is.

[Box]

KBB is so far off it's not even funny, best thing is to see what they've been selling for on eBay. Still, that's too much. You'd be better off buying one with twice the mileage for a third of the price. Either way they'll burn oil and 5K could get you a much better car if you're willing to do a swap yourself.

[cheela]

Just FYI, we got my green 97 ST Limited with just over 100k for about $5k or $6k back in 2005.
fast forward to 2014, I don't think an ST would hold that much value over 10 years.

[njccmd2002]

Unless it had a beams swap and whole redone transmission

And suspension

[Box]

Unless it had a beams swap and whole redone transmission

And suspension

Wasn't there recently one like that for sale on here?

[Langing]

I know the car you're speaking of - it's dark green, right?

Looking at the pictures, the seats are in BAD shape since the rear ones have tons of wrinkles - noticeable wrinkles - that leather should not have and the fronts have creases and dirt on them; knock around 900 off the price just to have the seats done. The license plate bezel is missing clear coat and peeling as well which means at least a 300 dollar re-paint on that part.

After seeing all of that, I'd want maintenance records and history for all owners (if possible) and even then I'd only offer about $3,000 max for it.

It's overpriced for what it is.

You know, it is pretty close to dark green. How did you figure it out?

My wife told me to just give you guys the link where I found that car so you could take a good look and have a better basis for coming up with a price. I said "NO WAY!, they might rush out to buy it!"

Seriously, thank you for going to the trouble of looking it up to see what you think it's really worth. Did you notice that it has been on the market for some 121 days? That's a good indication you are right in your evaluation.

Oh, BTW, I forgot to ask earlier, what's the difference between a Celica ST and a Celica ST Limited Edition? I already knew that an ST was worth less than a GT, so I'm learning (slowly).

[Langing]

KBB is so far off it's not even funny, best thing is to see what they've been selling for on eBay. Still, that's too much. You'd be better off buying one with twice the mileage for a third of the price. Either way they'll burn oil and 5K could get you a much better car if you're willing to do a swap yourself.

Thanks to you, I've learned even more. I hadn't thought of looking for cars on eBay, didn't know KBB gave high valuations, and must admit you've provoked an "as yet unrealized" truth that must be lurking deep within myself, as much as I resist, I feel I am getting closer and closer to the central vortex of this website --- a desire to R&R an engine.

[VavAlephVav]

KBB is a pretty good price if you consider a car that was owned by somebody who didn't do anything but change the oil. I only paid $2000 for mine, but within a year I've rebuilt brakes, CV axles, needs struts and tires, and a whole new motor.
but I know if I had gone and bought the one the dealer had for $4500 it would of had a nicer paint job but it still would have needed plenty of work.

also when buying stuff from used dealers take a good look at the frame or the bumpers, to see if its been wrecked before. look at where the fender meets the door, is the color the same? do the pinstripes match?
lots of used car guys will buy something at an auction that's been smashed into a ball and then take it to a cheap body shop and fix it up. and still try to sell it for top dollar.

[Langing]

Just FYI, we got my green 97 ST Limited with just over 100k for about $5k or $6k back in 2005.
fast forward to 2014, I don't think an ST would hold that much value over 10 years.

Thanks cheela, for another good data point to add to what I was told by Barbershop (99 GT VGC w/113k Jan, 2014 $5,200) and Keiri (99 GT Condition UNK w/109k 2009 about $6,000). What condition was yours in when you bought it?

Also, what's the difference between ST and ST Limited Edition?

[Langing]

Unless it had a beams swap and whole redone transmission

And suspension

And with your project thread as proof, I would know the car was totally worth that kind of money.

[Box]

The Limited Edition was to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the Celica in North America. Has some fancy badges, a plaque, and unique patterned seats with "Celica" embroidered on them. Really about it. Which the one you're looking at obviously no longer has the special seats.

Really I don't see any plain Jane 6th gen being worth more than a couple of grand. The ones I have seen sell for around 5K have been super low mileage GT's with the AUTOMATIC from a dealership, or they've already been swapped. Only get the ST if you're wanting the highest fuel economy possible, otherwise get a GT and swap it. The 5-speed really kills the value on these cars, most people buying them are looking for a fuel saving beater and can't drive stick.

[Langing]

KBB is a pretty good price if you consider a car that was owned by somebody who didn't do anything but change the oil. I only paid $2000 for mine, but within a year I've rebuilt brakes, CV axles, needs struts and tires, and a whole new motor.
but I know if I had gone and bought the one the dealer had for $4500 it would of had a nicer paint job but it still would have needed plenty of work.

also when buying stuff from used dealers take a good look at the frame or the bumpers, to see if its been wrecked before. look at where the fender meets the door, is the color the same? do the pinstripes match?
lots of used car guys will buy something at an auction that's been smashed into a ball and then take it to a cheap body shop and fix it up. and still try to sell it for top dollar.

Many thanks for your constructive comments VavAlephVav. You've clarified the relationship between quality of maintenance and true VALUE, and I understand (and agree with) what you say about the perils of, and approach to, buying 'used.' A well documented maintenance history is an essential part of the buying transaction. See the thread by njcccmd2002 about the 96 ST Anniversary Edition with BEAMS he superbly renovated and sold. That Celica conveyed real, lasting value to the buyer.

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showto...2+project+BEAMS

Maybe it's late and my thinking is fuzzy, but your statement "KBB is a pretty good price if you consider a car that was owned by somebody who didn't do anything but change the oil" didn't compute, at least at first. If all the owner did was change the oil, I take that to mean the owner basically didn't do maintenance, and the car is definitely going to need a whole lot of work after you've bought it.

As you went on to explain, even if you pay the dealer asking (inflated) price for a car such as the one I pointed out, you are STILL on the hook for a couple more thousand (not to speak of the heavy duty work/time) to fix what wasn't taken care of before you bought the car. So, if I paid the asking $5,500, I've got to plan on spending more, and devoting more time, to fix stuff, so in my mind I should be thinking $7,500, plus a lot of sweat.

I guess under that view your statement is correct, the KBB dealer $3,200 IS INDEED a decent evaluation (and lines up well with opinions expressed on this thread) because + $2,000 = $5,200 (which is the asking price). But if I pay the asking price, I'm going to end up ACTUALLY paying $7,500, when I should have paid the $3,200 KBB price ($3,200 + $2,000 = $5,200), which is about $2,000 less than asking price. Am I getting this right?

[VavAlephVav]

yes, and I think the best thing is just to shop around and don't get in a hurry. (just don't take as long as some people do /cough )
you can buy a cheap one if you want to build it yourself, or maybe you'll get lucky and find one that's been cared for.

[Langing]

The Limited Edition was to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the Celica in North America. Has some fancy badges, a plaque, and unique patterned seats with "Celica" embroidered on them. Really about it. Which the one you're looking at obviously no longer has the special seats.

Really I don't see any plain Jane 6th gen being worth more than a couple of grand. The ones I have seen sell for around 5K have been super low mileage GT's with the AUTOMATIC from a dealership, or they've already been swapped. Only get the ST if you're wanting the highest fuel economy possible, otherwise get a GT and swap it. The 5-speed really kills the value on these cars, most people buying them are looking for a fuel saving beater and can't drive stick.

Interesting info. Thanks. So, the "Leather Seats" are likely junk covering up wasted 'special' seats. One photo kinda gave me that impression, but wasn't sure.

Sad (broken hearted) to hear how badly the 5-speed effects value!

If 5-speeds sell for less, maybe that's a good thing, for me?

All my life, I've only owned manual transmissions, and I've never wanted an automatic, ever. Even when they became "perfected" to the point where you can hardly feel the gear changes I unthinkingly consider them 'beneath' me, maybe unmanly, but surely something so despicable that only a XXX would ever drive 'an automatic'. Fuel economy matters, but is definitely not the primary reason.

If the 5-speed transmission is so detrimental to a car's value, does that mean that most people on this website drive automatics? Hate to ask, because I had assumed everyone thought like me, inferring that most everyone here drove sticks, but in light of what you said, I feel I need to ask .

[Langing]

yes, and I think the best thing is just to shop around and don't get in a hurry. (just don't take as long as some people do /cough )
you can buy a cheap one if you want to build it yourself, or maybe you'll get lucky and find one that's been cared for.

I would be hoping to get 'lucky' and find one whose owner put the kind of TLC into it that members here seem to lavish on their Celicas, so I would have a car to drive while I re-built Betsy, my 94 ST. I've already rebuilt her 'wheels' from the brake hoses on down, including everything but the suspension parts underneath her, and am contemplating doing those asap and just like njcccmd2002 did. Maybe then I'll get the guts to attempt to swap her engine. Later on re-do the interior. Have to do this one little step at a time. Every step is a learning effort.