Mechanic Shop Liability, Timing belt brakes while running do you A? B? Options

[VavAlephVav]

2001 Kia Sportage, with a 2.0 dohc - my sisters, breaks the timing belt while running. Has it towed to a shop and they tell her it needs a timing belt and water pump. After they replace it Then they figure out, Well the valve smashed a hole in the piston and the whole motor is trash. They still want $800 for part and labor of the timing belt, And we have to pay for a whole new motor and labor to put it in.
As a professional wouldn't you have inspected that First to verify it wasn't trash before replacing the timing belt? Or if they had told her that there was even a Slim chance that Maybe the motor could be completely ruined and that they wouldn't know for sure until they replace the belt she would have never agreed to have them replace the timing belt.
My mom bought this thing brand new and has taken it to the same shop everytime it needed anything, including when the timing belt broke the first time at 99k miles. That time they just put a new belt and pump on it and it started right up. Of course the problem is my Mom won't fix anything until it breaks, which is foolish, but at this point wouldn't you, the professional, inform her that this need to be replaced ahead of time every 60k miles anything beyond that and you're pushing your luck?
I spent some time reading about that motor on the interwebs today and I saw lots of conflicting stories about whether or not it was an interference motor. The official story is that it is Non-interference, yet there were dozens of stories of people who had it break while running and the motor was trashed. And this to me is further evidence of a history of interference that a professional would have been aware of, if they are good.
So Mom gives this thing to my sister, now with 220k on it before the timing belt breaks again. She had it towed to the same shop that she has been going to for more than 15 years, and she's always been happy with whatever they've done for her. I told her not to pay them yet, and when she went up and talked to him today he explained that each time you break the belt while running it always damages the valves slightly, but often it will still run. This to me indicates that he was aware of the possibility of irreparable damage to the motor.
My friend who has a shop and has been in the business for 20 years told me that if he had misdiagnosed something like that he would be eating the timing belt for lunch for weeks. Others tell me I need to stfu and pay the bill like a good boy. The best suggestion I've heard yet is to turn it in to the shops insurance and let their inspector come out and determine if they should have been able to diagnose that in the first place. and of course we could use AAA or BBB to put pressure on them.

I've had my own little LLC doing light commercial refrigeration for restaurants and convenience stores, with repair bills that would rival the cost of auto repair work. And I always figured that because I am the Expert it was my duty to educate the customer. If routine maintenance will save them a lot of money in the long run I at least tell them about it, I don't assume it's their responsibility to understand these things. I am the expert and it's my job to teach them. Now, if they don't listen to me fine, I warned them and if it breaks later down the road it's not my fault. However there are a lot of people in my business who don't do it that way because, after all, they make more money when it breaks so why warn the customer.
I'd especially like to hear what you think if you're a professional mechanic, how easy is it to check for sure before you replace a timing belt, is it standard procedure to be certain before doing a repair like that? Or do you just have no way to tell until you put a belt on it and try to start it?

This post has been edited by VavAlephVav: Dec 5, 2014 - 1:14 AM

[Box]

Well, according to my Gates Timing Belt Interval Guide it's an interference motor. The shop should have a similar book on hand as it gives the part number, and every interference motor has a star next to it. It's pretty much clear as crystal on what's what... I'll tell you what happened, they saw a female in distress that didn't know anything about cars and decided to take advantage of that. What I would've done is explain that the engine was an interference motor and that odds are 99% there was additional valve-train and/or piston damage. There's no way of testing before replacing the belt since once it's broken the cams are in suspension separate from the crankshaft. You'd have to throw on another belt and turn the motor by hand, or remove the head and inspect for damage. Of course not everyone is nice like me and does such, they'll manipulate and extort unknowing customers. As far as the other, part of being a technician is proper diagnosis. A lot of dealers have an $100 or so diagnostic fee they'll put towards the repair should you choose to have it done there. Depending on the integrity of the shop they'll at least eat the cost of labour.

I'd try the BBB and contacting your Attorney General to gain some headway with the matter.

[Bitter]

They should have looked up if it was an interference motor, however I had a SOHC 2.0 Neon at the shop which was noted as non interference, I've replaced broken belts before without bent valves, but this particular one bent a valve for some reason. We gave the guy a break on labor partially, then while test driving it the trans cooler inside the radiator (automatic) leaked and filled the trans with coolant! Luckily we were able to flush the contamination from the trans and keep it from being ruined. Coolant can delaminate transmission clutches.

[VavAlephVav]

Mainly they should have warned her up front that there is a possibility that the motor is ruined, and we won't know until we change the belt. If they had told her that she would have never agreed to the repair. That's just the way she is, she'd rather go buy something else than put +$500 into anything old. Others have told me that when a belt brakes while driving it you have to assume it could be damaged even if it supposedly Isn't an interference motor.
If you warn people up front that it could need a whole new motor and Then ask them if they want to do the timing belt that's a whole different story. When she went up there yesterday he even told her that everytime the belt brakes while running it bends the valves a little bit. Which to me indicates that he was well aware of the probability.
I have to go talk to this dude myself tomorrow. I'm going to tell him I want his insurance info and we'll let their inspector determine if they should have assumed the worst and warned her. And if he wants to act a fool then Ill get with the BBB, AAA, and the Attorney General.
What's "good" about this whole thing is three months ago when my ECU burnt up and it took me two weeks to figure it out she was bitching at me, "why don't you just take it up to this shop is go to and let them fix it." And of course I just roll my eyes. I got a new battery, distributor, and an ECU and it only cost me $300 and hours of my time and effort. I told her "You just don't understand what a good deal that is."

[Box]

Like I said, they saw a defenseless woman and took advantage of her. I'd like to think they overlooked the fact it was an interference motor, but given what he said it's not like he's completely clueless... He knew what he was doing... It's like the suspension shops that keep a bent control arm or sway bar in the floor of the shop, and when they see a clueless customer they'll bring it out and say how it came off their car and it was a good thing they caught it because it could have resulted in an accident... So clueless customer pays $500 for them to sit on their ass eating doughnuts for an hour. That or they'll keep bad brake pads so they can do the same... Places like that make me sick... Dealerships are bad enough, the one I was at the warranty meant nothing unless it was a serious enough failure the customer brought it in for that specific item. If we came across something that needed replaced and that would be covered under warranty we were told to not say anything and wait for it to fail after warranty... Needless to say I didn't stay there long.

[VavAlephVav]

ya, in my business it's the same way. Most people are going to try and fkk you as hard as they can because that's how they make money. And I H A T E freakn rednecks like that. They'll say "I've been doing it this way for 20 years.." Well for 20 years you've done it Wrong!
There are certain other asshats elsewhere on the internet (the same kind of ass who told me to run ATF in my transmission) that are trying to argue that - If you agreed to the service repair then you should pay it.
And I've heard about enough of that ****.

This post has been edited by VavAlephVav: Dec 6, 2014 - 10:34 AM

[Box]

It's not worth paying a bill that's more than the car's worth. If they want to get into semantics they were selling the service of repairing the car to being roadworthy again, and they haven't fulfilled that obligation.

[Bitter]

Oh yea, we always warn customers there could be engine damage with a broken belt.

She can always take the car title up there, sign it over to them, and tell them to screw off.

[VavAlephVav]

I went up there and talked with the General manager myself today. He confirmed that they were aware that motor is listed as an interference motor. His tech, who's worked there for 20 years.., did the whole deal himself so the guy I talked to today wasn't really sure what he'd said but we were quite sure he did not expressly warn my mom that when it breaks while running the motor may be further damaged and we cant tell for sure until we slap a belt on it. He tried to pedal around that point but I seized hold and focused in on that point. I told him I do refrigeration work and I've handed plenty of customers big bills, and I pointed out that it's my duty as the expert, the professional, to educate the customer and not to assume they know anything. They pay big money for my service because I Am the expert. Furthermore this same shop and this same tech replaced this timing belt 120k miles ago when it also broke, but that time it broke while idling in the driveway, they got lucky and it was ok after just replacing the belt. He tried to say This was why the tech figured it would be ok this time. And I pointed out that you just got Lucky, and you can't assume there is no damage this time when the motor is listed as Interference. And then what I really got him on was There is No Timing belt Sticker on that cover. He said surely his tech put one on there and so we went outside to look at it, and sure enough there was no belt sticker with the replacement mileage on it. He told me "well you know when you try to tell people that needs to be changed every so many miles people think you're just trying to sell them more work." and I pointed out that even if people don't go for it, it is Your responsibility to inform them that belt Must be changed every 60k miles, and anything past that you are pushing your luck and run the risk of seriously damaging the motor. And THEN if they don't listen to you it's their fault, IF you don't warn them it's YOUR fault. Even though my Mom is the type who would never fix anything until it breaks, she gave this Kia to my sister 2 years ago. I've given my sister some grief in the past because she's had some problems wrecking cars. Her first car was an 86 Supra - and she totaled it in less than 8 months, my other sister gave her a Corolla and she wrecked it, my dad gave her a Shadow and she wrecked it, and there's a couple more I can't think of right now. But this time she's really tried to get her **** together and take care of this car. for one, she's had it two years and not wrecked it which is a record. For two, every 3000 miles she has been over at my brothers house changing her oil. She goes to walmart and gets what she needs herself and either me or Tim help her with whatever little thing she needs but she's done most of it herself now. We helped her change the starter on that silly thing And it was a BASTARD! But, IF there had been a big yellow Gates Sticker on the timing belt cover Me or my brother would have seen that and We would have convinced her that timing belt needed to be changed right away. But, there was no sticker. So I've got his ass there. Now, what I told him is how about you eat that labor, and you pull that head off of there, give it to me, and I will take it to have some valves replaced and I will get a head gasket and bring it to him and He can just write the labor as if we had just done the head gasket in the first place which would include the timing belt. He said he'd work on an estimate and give me a call. ...And then I'm gonna talk him down a bit more beyond that, tell him his mechanic can just learn to do it right or he can Eat it.

[Box]

Glad that you were able to make some headway with the general manager. Honestly if were me I'd take it home and do it myself, and just pay for their parts. Depending on how spiteful the tech is and his sense of morals I wouldn't particularly trust him at this point. Of course he'd have to be really stupid to try something... Of course I'm paranoid and only trust myself, my uncle the ASE master tech for Toyota, my grandfather that taught my uncle and mom everything, and then my mom that taught me everything and brother also taught by her. Anyway hopefully he won't quote anything too terribly high. Timing belt alone is $400+ depending on the car and labour rates, so anything not too much more than that would be fair enough given the bull****. Head gasket for an inline four shouldn't be too terribly much, wouldn't think much more than $300 with the gasket. Dealerships go by the book on specified hours, independent shops obviously have a multitude of choices on how they want to go about pricing it. Anyhow, hope you can make things right for your sister without too much more trouble. Guess when the head is off check the pistons and cylinder walls too, which if it hasn't been burning oil the walls should still be good enough.

[VavAlephVav]

So I told the dude I'd pay for the timing belt kit, coolant, tow, and diagnostic, about $250, And he was cool with that. Then we'll tow it to my friends shop and he'll see how bad the motor is. Worst case we sell it to picknpull and get $300 for it.

[Box]

Well at least you have one fiasco settled. Hopefully the pistons are ok and it's just the valves.

[VavAlephVav]

...Sooooo my friend looked at it for a couple hours, fixed a leaky rocker cover gasket, found a bad connecter on one of the ignition coils and that was all that was wrong with it.
The tech who was doing the work at that shop was an old-timer that's been doing this for 20 years, what do you think the likelihood of him just mistaking a bad ignition misfire for bent valves/cracked pistons?
/slap frickn asshat

[Box]

Well, even better deal then! I'm glad it was an easy enough fix. I don't see how he could mistake them, bent valves would have a very distinctive metallic noise as they slam into the valve seat. Either he's not a very good tech or they were trying to screw her out of even more money... I suppose you've already told your sister to run things by you first from now on?

This post has been edited by Box: Dec 12, 2014 - 12:31 AM

[HaysoosKreesto]

Sounds like a tech who wanted to roll the dice and lost

[VavAlephVav]

Well, even better deal then! I'm glad it was an easy enough fix. I don't see how he could mistake them, bent valves would have a very distinctive metallic noise as they slam into the valve seat. Either he's not a very good tech or they were trying to screw her out of even more money... I suppose you've already told your sister to run things by you first from now on?

ya, she unfortunately has this problem where she feels like I won't help her and then won't even ask. Which is BS, so I'm trying to convince her to call me First.

[VavAlephVav]

Sounds like a tech who wanted to roll the dice and lost

I agree, they were dealing with my Mom and didn't count on me being so righteous and resourceful.
Now I need to go and rub it in on certain other asshats who want to make it out like im just some little bitch who can't except that the mechanic is always right and that's just what I get for not changing the belt on time.